Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
User avatar
roster
Posts: 8164
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:02 pm
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by roster » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:37 pm

LinkC wrote: .....Gee, *MY* mental image is of a tall, thin blonde practically bursting out of a slinky negligee, murmuring "Sweet dreams, Pookie" just above the gentle whisper of the CPAP machine. Now THAT's the idyllic way to coach!
Linksie,

If you can sleep through that, you have some problems that I don't.

_________________
Mask: Hybrid Full Face CPAP Mask with Nasal Pillows and Headgear
Additional Comments: M Series Integrated Humidifier
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

ProfessorEd
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 4:03 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by ProfessorEd » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:19 pm

As to the software being able to recognize sleep, it comes from asking my doctor (plus reading) if they had automatied the process adequately yet. It appears not, with humans doing much of the work.

As most here know, there is software that detects apneas. The usual argument against using this for diagnosis has been you do not know how many hours someone has been asleep (plus, someone that wants a diagnosis to collect benefits can probably fake apneas by just not breathing). This is obviously a weak argument since in severe cases you know the maximum hour asleep (hours in bed), and dividing the number of apneas by this will often give a rate that leaves little doubt as to the diagnosis. While humans can do many things better (including I suspect this) I am also in favor of saving money and am aware that the expensive sleep lab test is not available to everyone. Even with insurance that covered it, I had trouble getting tested (because it was so expensive they did not just take the doctor's word at first and talk of law suits was needed).

For what many of us want, the real question is not how accurate such a technique is in absolute terms, but whether within the same person it permits reasonably accurate comparisons over time or with two different interventions. With only six patients tested for two nights, and none for more than that, it is hard to know the answer to this. They did not report the results on the six patients tested on two nights (which raises a worry that the results were not good). However, I am more optimistic partially because I suspect there are lots of random errors that will cancel out when the device is used over longer periods.

Suppose you are wondering whether tryptophan taken before bed improves your sleep. With a full sleep lab test this would be two nights and very expensive. Even then, there would be the risk that one night you had had a argument with your spouse and that affected your sleep (or any number of other one time effects). with a cheap machine, one might try one week with the typtophan and one without it. I suspect useful information could emerge. If there was a major improvement in say depth of sleep, I suspect this machine would show it. I suspect, there is a low risk that if the machine would show an adverse effect when the effect was actually positive.

Of course, if this lets you document poorer sleep when your spouse shares a bed with you, this could be bad for marriages <g>. that is partially, a joke since a smart couple might experiment and find a solution for the sleep problem, and with a less sleep deprived spouse things might be better.

Derek@Zeo

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by Derek@Zeo » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:23 pm

Hi Everyone.

I work for Zeo, Inc and just came across this conversation. I wanted to provide a little more information about Zeo that might help to answer a few of your questions.

First and foremost – I wanted to clear up any confusion around what Zeo is (and is not).
- Zeo is an educational tool and motivational program that helps you understand how you are sleeping, reveals habits and behaviors that may be helping or hindering your sleep, and teaches new ways that may help you get a better night's rest... This is accomplished with the Zeo Bedside Display, an online account where you can upload and track your data trends over time and maintain a journal of the things that you do during the day) and a 6 month subscription to our email based sleep coaching program (which recommends techniques to address the lifestyle factors that may be affecting your sleep). This is all included when you purchase Zeo.
- Zeo Personal Sleep Coach is neither a medical device nor a medical program and is not intended for the diagnosis or treatment of sleep disorders. If you suspect that you may have a sleep disorder, consult your physician. In reference to a few of the comments above, Zeo does not measure oxygen levels and it is not intended to override any prescriptions or advice from your doctor – always follow the manufacturer’s instructions for any device that you are currently using and always follow the advice of your doctor.

In order to accurately track your sleep patterns, the wireless headband needs to be in contact with your forehead. If you bought Zeo and decided that it isn’t for you, there is a 30-day money back guarantee.

If you’re interested in hearing what other people think who have used Zeo, Melinda Beck from the Wall St Journal used Zeo for two weeks – you can find her video review with the article from the first post. Also, you can see some of the data and an early review from one of the people who bought Zeo by searching Tomasino Zeo in google (there are two posts on his blog about Zeo along with some screenshots).

Great conversation. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Derek
---
Derek Haswell
Associate Manager Social Media & Online Marketing

jnk
Posts: 5787
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by jnk » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:20 pm

Derek@Zeo wrote:Hi Everyone.

I work for Zeo, Inc and just came across this conversation. I wanted to provide a little more information about Zeo that might help to answer a few of your questions.

First and foremost – I wanted to clear up any confusion around what Zeo is (and is not).
- Zeo is an educational tool and motivational program that helps you understand how you are sleeping, reveals habits and behaviors that may be helping or hindering your sleep, and teaches new ways that may help you get a better night's rest... This is accomplished with the Zeo Bedside Display, an online account where you can upload and track your data trends over time and maintain a journal of the things that you do during the day) and a 6 month subscription to our email based sleep coaching program (which recommends techniques to address the lifestyle factors that may be affecting your sleep). This is all included when you purchase Zeo.
- Zeo Personal Sleep Coach is neither a medical device nor a medical program and is not intended for the diagnosis or treatment of sleep disorders. If you suspect that you may have a sleep disorder, consult your physician. In reference to a few of the comments above, Zeo does not measure oxygen levels and it is not intended to override any prescriptions or advice from your doctor – always follow the manufacturer’s instructions for any device that you are currently using and always follow the advice of your doctor.

In order to accurately track your sleep patterns, the wireless headband needs to be in contact with your forehead. If you bought Zeo and decided that it isn’t for you, there is a 30-day money back guarantee.

If you’re interested in hearing what other people think who have used Zeo, Melinda Beck from the Wall St Journal used Zeo for two weeks – you can find her video review with the article from the first post. Also, you can see some of the data and an early review from one of the people who bought Zeo by searching Tomasino Zeo in google (there are two posts on his blog about Zeo along with some screenshots).

Great conversation. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Derek
---
Derek Haswell
Associate Manager Social Media & Online Marketing
Thanks, Derek!

My interest in the product does not involve subscriptions or coaching. The only aspect that interests me is the ability to discern my sleep stages. I do not need that function for diagnostic or directly medical reasons; I only wish to know how useful the sleep stage information collected by the machine would be for me in my coming to personal conclusions about how effective my sleep was the night before. So the reliability of the sensors and the accuracy of the scoring of the sleep stages are the primary questions for me.

I am not asking you to respond. I only wanted to clarify my personal reason for interest in the product, which I gather is quite different from what the procuct was designed for.

jeff

User avatar
cinco777
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by cinco777 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:11 pm

Derek said
I work for Zeo, Inc and just came across this conversation. I wanted to provide a little more information about Zeo that might help to answer a few of your questions.
Derek, my interest in using/buying a Zeo is the same as Jnk. I am interested in getting an accurate measure of the time I spend each night in the various sleep stages, including awakenings. I believe that if you can't measure it, you can't manage it, and measurements of the time spent in each sleep stage would help me manage my sleep therapy with more confidence. Like most others on this site, we will be CPAP users for the rest of our lives. And a little more data/information to help us better manage our CPAP therapy will be very welcome and beneficial. Please be aware that I would not buy one unless I could run the analysis software on my PC.

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: ResMed AirFit™ F30 Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: CPAP Auto with Min 10, Max 12, and OSCAR
I live in my body. I know my body better than anyone else in the world. I may consult a medical professional for advice, but no one, and I do mean NO ONE tells me what I am permitted to do. - Kiralynx

User avatar
TSSleepy
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:11 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by TSSleepy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:04 am

Ditto, to the jnk and cinco777. Some of us that have sleep issues and are very proactive have probably heard ALL the coaching tips about good sleep hygiene.

But for some of us who still have issues, it's data we crave. I know I've been very interested in assembling my own EEG and EOG for monitoring my sleep stages, but haven't had the time or energy to cobble something together.

I would easily pay a few hundred bucks for something good and pre-packaged, that could accurately record my sleep stages.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: SPO PulseOx 7500. Range 10-12, A-Flex 3, Humi 1. Pad A Cheek Hose Cover (Blue w/Stars) over SleepZone Aussie Heated Hose.

User avatar
ca_hosehead
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:51 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by ca_hosehead » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:10 am

Fascinating. I feel the same way, I just want the raw data. I would like to know how much time I am spending in the various sleep phases. I would also like to know if any arousals happen and exactly when these occur. A minute by minute log with the time and the phase of sleep would be extremely helpful.

How much does the web site cost?

How much detail is available on the data?

_________________
Mask
Additional Comments: CMS 50-F Pulse Oximeter, Sony DCRHC62 Camcorder

jnk
Posts: 5787
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by jnk » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:22 am

My assumption is that Zeo must be VERY careful not to promote their stuff as being at all medical related. (That may be why the hardware is being mentioned almost incidentally to the primary marketing of a 'coaching' system for sleep 'fitness.' ) Since our PAP therapy is a medical therapy, I doubt that anyone from the company would be likely to make a statement about using their equipment in conjunction with our therapy. I also assume that may be why the company was quick to publicly distance itself from the use we are suggesting.

Furthermore, it may be that the equipment is not accurate enough to give us the kind of information we as hosers would find useful but is only meant to be used as a sort of sleep toy to give a hint to one of the sleep-fitness 'coaches.' But that is merely my guess based on my assumptions in connection with my total lack of direct firsthand knowledge. I mention it, though, as a way of suggesting that the way we word our questions may affect what answers we do or do not get, here or when communicating with the company.

jeff

ProfessorEd
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 4:03 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by ProfessorEd » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:19 am

The law is perfectly clear they cannot market this as a medical device without FDA approval. Getting this approval is expensive and requires studies they apparently have not undertaken. I am certain they have debated the wisdom of seeking this approval, and suspect they would do it if they had the funding. If they did seek approval it would use some version of the same technology, but would be a different device legally, and probably a much more expensive one (I suspect such a version would have multiple sensors.

As I mentioned earlier, there are obvious virtues to integrating such technology into CPAP headgear and could probably be profitable for the company that could do so and offer an unique product (protected by patents).

One well known cost to the current regulatory system is that many potentially useful devices never get to market (and a benefit is that much junk does not get to market and what does is better tested).

A concern I have here is that these regulations may keep the company from providing information that could be lifesaving to patients. Rather than saying seee your doctor if you suspect you have a medical condition (good advice, especially for those with insurance or non-poverty level incomes) they could possibly put in their literature a brief description of apnea and periodic limb movement conditions. Many buying this product, or thinking about it probably are doing so because they know their sleep is not restful, and some probably suffer from apea or another condition.

Assuming this product does at least part of what it is supposed to do, I can imagine it accidentally discovering indications of problems. Frequent arousal may indicate a problem or long periods in pbed without sleep. Ideally they might say the normal ranges are so and so, and suggest seeking further advice if well outside of these ranges. This might help some people and probably could save lives. while I think such warnings could be worked in with proper language. Not, "you appear to have X or to be sick" (a diagnosis which makes it a medical device), but "the following dat is well outside of normal ranges and you may wish to consult a doctor". While the latter is less likely to promote a doctor's visit, it probably still could save lives. It could generate additional income for doctors and lead to good will for the company among them, and possibly additional business. I can easily see a doctor with a patient reporting insomnia (actually one of the most common complaints), suggesting this product for a patient who has no obvious medical issues. I t could be more effective and easier for the doctor than suggesting better "sleep hygiene" (which to be useful requires the doctor to spend considerable time explaining what should be done and answering questions).

Admittedly some doctors are not too interested in such data. I use a doctor at the George Washington University clinic and they do not have the equipment to read the output from my machine in spite of their money. At home lab laid out almost $25 from a reader and with the aid of a mysterious disk that arrive in the mail with some software on it (thanks to whoever sent it) I can now access data they cannot.

I can imagine a discussion which goes as follows. "You suffer from excessive day time sleepiness (ETS). I notice from this data you typically go to bed at 2 AM and get up at 6 AM. I think going to bed earlier might solve your problem."

I think I would purchase this device if there was some evidence that it had accuracy within a single patient (i.e. it correctly indicated which nights you got more deep sleep, or even which nights I got more sleep (I can get time in bed with the machine on from my data recording device). This requires more studies of subject that run over several nights.

Studies have repeatedly shown people have trouble estimating how long it takes to fall asleep and how often they awaken. Many cases of waking up are not remembered. My 7 year old claims he has trouble going to sleep although observation shows he is always asleep shortly after being put to bed. There is a real need for such a device in the medical market (that can be used at home) to separate those with insomnia (inability to fall asleep or stay asleep) from those whose sleep is not restful enough. However, this device is probably not it, and if it is, the law prohibits the company from maketing it for this purpose.

However, the uses I and other have in mind are for optimizing our sleep, determining whether what we ear, when we exercise, what we do before bedtime, when we last have coffee etc. Supplement companies have bcome very good at marketing their products within the legal limits. The Life Extension Foundation put out a magazine which is mainly articles about supplements (and under freedom of the press can discuss how various supplements help people of various types, including lthose with diseases. In the magazine are there are ads for the supplements they sell (just in case you decided you wanted to buy something that might help you with a condition you have). The ads are correctly phased to stay within the law.

I suspect at some point, this firm will be selling a popular magazine on sleep which provides much useful information (hopefully) and just possibly includes ads for this device (and probably other sleep related products). There is a very large market for such a magazine since poor sleep and insomnia are very common. Those that watch TV know there a many firms advertising sleep related products (mattresses, sleeping bills, melatonin, supplements, etc.) and these are most likely to be bought by those with sleep problems. The above is some free advice for the company from a retired business school professor.
Last edited by ProfessorEd on Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TSSleepy
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:11 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by TSSleepy » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:49 am

I would hope that some company could make a wireless EEG-like headband and sell it without labeling it a medical device (and jumping through tons of regulatory hoops).

Hell, as far as I'm concerned that's less "medical" and less dangerous than an anal thermometer!

In both EEG and themometer cases you are simply measuring something that is happening to the body and reporting values. As long as the company doesn't offer any medical advice regarding that data, they should be cool.

Unfortunately, I realize that regulatory bodies don't always make sense, and a lot of decisions get based on lawyers' advice regarding liability.

Heck, I think Zeo is going out on quite a limb here, from a "liability" standpoint, by offering what could be considered medical advice with their gadget.

But maybe they are hoping they would fit into the "nutritionist" or "dietician" role. If a fat person like me dies of obesity-related problems, my family probably wouldn't be successful suing my nutritionist. But if that hasn't been tried yet...it's just a matter of time.

_________________
Mask: Mirage Quattro™ Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: SPO PulseOx 7500. Range 10-12, A-Flex 3, Humi 1. Pad A Cheek Hose Cover (Blue w/Stars) over SleepZone Aussie Heated Hose.

ProfessorEd
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 4:03 pm

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by ProfessorEd » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:39 am

I went ahead an ordered this device.

They do have a 30 day money back offer. Anyone getting it with a spouse might consider asking the spouse to see how you you take to fall asleep and comparing it with their data. If grossly wrong you might want to return it.

It is also clear that in the intended use the cost is not just financial. Some time will be needed to tansfer the data to the computer and to make notes. You probably should be willing to commit this time before purchasing (which may be worth it if you are now having problems with sleepiness).

User avatar
Slinky
Posts: 11387
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Mid-Michigan

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by Slinky » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:38 am

Hey, ProfessorEd.

Since you bought the Zeo Professional Sleep Coach how about sharing your experience and opinion of it?

IF they'd kick loose w/the software for my home PC and kept the price the same I probably could have been convinced to kick loose w/the money to buy it just outta curiosity. But NOT w/o the software for MY at home PC.

SleepTracker was able to develop and market their device WITH software at a reasonable price w/o marketing it as a medical device. I see no reason why the Zeo folks can't do the same. Except those developing the SleepTracker were university students and not yet used to earning the big bucks the Zeo's developers were/are.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR SystemOne BPAP Auto w/Bi-Flex & Humidifier - EncorePro 2.2 Software - Contec CMS-50D+ Oximeter - Respironics EverFlo Q Concentrator
Women are Angels. And when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly.....on a broomstick. We are flexible like that.
My computer says I need to upgrade my brain to be compatible with its new software.

User avatar
dowen
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:33 am
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by dowen » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:33 am

ProfessorEd wrote:I went ahead an ordered this device.
bump.

I too am very interested in reading your review.
Alternate mask: Ultra Mirage FFM

ProfessorEd
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 4:03 pm

Review after 3 nights

Post by ProfessorEd » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:52 pm

In responses to Slinky’s request and others, here are my first impressions.

I did order the Zeo and have received it.

It comes in fancy packaging and is very elegant in appearance, nice next to bed.

I had a little trouble setting it up, mainly because the set up information was in a separate book and I did not find it at first. Start with that.

The device is comfortable and fits easily over headband (nasal pillows) and should work with most masks I am familiar with.. I was able to confirm it does something since it produces a graph that shows some periods of REM sleep (very short periods of deep sleep) and awakenings..

A major surprise for me was that for the three nights I have used it, it is showing much more time awake than I expected or believe. The numbers were 2 plus hours, three and a half hours and 3:45. For the last night this is more awake time than sleep time. Deep sleep is less than 15 minutes. It shows several awakenings during the night with a failure to fall back to sleep.

The data does appear in the form of a graph on the machine with reasonable resolution If you wondered about whether your husband getting up at 5AM to go to work woke you up, and how long it took you to go back to sleep, this could answer your questions. (Research shows people frequently do not remember their awakenings during the night). If you were planning to sue the garbage men for waking you up, this could be evidence.

I am inclined to believe the device is showing me as awake when I am asleep. I recall having been dreaming when awakened and yet the machines shows I had been awake for a while before getting up.

None of the sleep studies I have had have shown such interrupted sleep (or at least they have not commented on it). I am not certain how to check the machine since I do not have a wife available to look (you could imagine one who got up to go the bathroom and looked to see if you were asleep and compared it with what the machine shows (the graph shows continuously so someone could look at it and compare it to their evaluation of whether you were asleep.). Unfortunately, using CPAP I do not snore so the simplest test of being asleep is not available even if there was an observer. Of course, many people laying still in bed may be awake rather than asleep so the question of how to tell is not an idle one.

If anyone has any suggestions for discovering if I am really awake half the time in bed, it would be useful. My Respironics machine includes a regularity of breathing measure, which I suspect was originally intended to help detect whether you are sleep, but there is not explanation in the manual (which suggests it was not found to be very reliable or very useful).

I can tell from the Respironics devicee when I get up for the bathroom (very high leak rates), so I suppose I could compare the two machines on this, but I don’t really soubt it picks up these transitions from sleep to waking..

With more experience I may notice whether its measurement of the number of hours I am asleep correlates with how I feel. (Certainly if I really slept only 3 hours last night out of over 8 hours in bed, I would be expected to be at least as sleepy today as I am ).

Since it is recording some data, I may try things like cutting off caffeine or Provigil earlier to see if it makes a difference. (Possibly as an older person my liver does not dispose of these as fast as it should, for instance).

The online sleep diary and downloading appears to take time, but could easily be useful if their data is decent. As I noted earlier, some benefit could probably be gotten from a diary and just noting how alert you felt and seeing which things affected you.

Ideally, if this device was approved as a medical device, you would wear it during a sleep study and that might help calibrate it (Since people differ in many ways, I would not be surprised if it either did not work for some people, or could be tweaked for different people)

If this thing could be shown to work, an obvious application would be measuring how much sleeping was done by truck drivers, pilots, and railroad workers etc. during the hours they were on duty (with an alarm waking them up if they went to sleep or a report just filed away). I think the averaging time is such that an accident might occur before a truck driver was discovered to have dozed off, but it might work for pilots or train crews. Of course, there is a real question whether it is safer to have a pilot nap during a slow period and be rested during the landing, or keeping him awake and having him non-alert during the landing.

I could also imagine such a device being required to be used on the night before going on duty and those who had had less than say three hours asleep not being allowed to drive or fly.

User avatar
Slinky
Posts: 11387
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Mid-Michigan

Re: Zeo Personal Sleep Coach?

Post by Slinky » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:30 pm

Thank you, ProfessorEd! I think I will not rush out and buy one just yet. Do keep us informed if and when something new comes up w/your Zeo use, please.

_________________
Mask: Quattro™ FX Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR SystemOne BPAP Auto w/Bi-Flex & Humidifier - EncorePro 2.2 Software - Contec CMS-50D+ Oximeter - Respironics EverFlo Q Concentrator
Women are Angels. And when someone breaks our wings, we simply continue to fly.....on a broomstick. We are flexible like that.
My computer says I need to upgrade my brain to be compatible with its new software.