Ice in humidifier chamber

[palerider]

An increase in volume will most certainly affect the way any cpap machine senses events. If you are not concerned about the data at all you can get by. If you are using an auto or a bipap machine there is a definite impact. Especially when adding a longer hose and an external humidifier. Just go by how you feel instead of the data. If it is a straight cpap just increase the pressure slightly to compensate for the loss.

this is incorrect.

the machine senses events by watching the flow of air wax and wane as you breath in and out, unless you're putting some kind of balloon or some other weird shit, then the amount of airflow variation won't change.

*many* people use two 6 foot hoses with a coupler in the middle, I did for several years, and my machines sensed events just fine.

[JAG2]

An increase in volume will most certainly affect the way any cpap machine senses events. If you are not concerned about the data at all you can get by. If you are using an auto or a bipap machine there is a definite impact. Especially when adding a longer hose and an external humidifier. Just go by how you feel instead of the data. If it is a straight cpap just increase the pressure slightly to compensate for the loss.

this is incorrect.

the machine senses events by watching the flow of air wax and wane as you breath in and out, unless you're putting some kind of balloon or some other weird shit, then the amount of airflow variation won't change.

*many* people use two 6 foot hoses with a coupler in the middle, I did for several years, and my machines sensed events just fine.

That goes to show what you know now doesn't it. There is no way you can increase the volume without affecting the flow and sensitivity.

*many* people use two 6 foot hoses with a coupler in the middle, I did for several years, and my machines sensed events just fine.

Are you the negativity Jedimark was speaking of? You are aren't you.

[palerider]

That goes to show what you know now doesn't it. There is no way you can increase the volume without affecting the flow and sensitivity.

do explain how increasing the volume of the circuit changes the amount of air flowing through and out the vent ports...

please, do go on.

do also explain to all the people that are using longer hoses, and add on humidifiers that their machines, in contradiction to all evidence, don't work any more.

[JAG2]

That goes to show what you know now doesn't it. There is no way you can increase the volume without affecting the flow and sensitivity.

do explain how increasing the volume of the circuit changes the amount of air flowing through and out the vent ports...

please, do go on.

do also explain to all the people that are using longer hoses, and add on humidifiers that their machines, in contradiction to all evidence, don't work any more.

You would do better to explain how changing those things cannot possibly have any effect on pressure or pressure sensing devices. People can add longer hoses and look at their data, when they see zeroes they think they are doing good but don't realize the reason.

While you are at it please explain who Jedimark is referring to in this post "I don't deal so well with negativity..." when he says

Anyway, I've had to make a decision today to remove someone from my inner circles, that I quite expect a bit of flack for.

Jedimark

I think he would receive praise if people knew it was you he was referring to.

[palerider]

That goes to show what you know now doesn't it. There is no way you can increase the volume without affecting the flow and sensitivity.

do explain how increasing the volume of the circuit changes the amount of air flowing through and out the vent ports...

please, do go on.

do also explain to all the people that are using longer hoses, and add on humidifiers that their machines, in contradiction to all evidence, don't work any more.

You would do better to explain how changing those things cannot possibly have any effect on pressure or pressure sensing devices. People can add longer hoses and look at their data, when they see zeroes they think they are doing good but don't realize the reason.

so, you've got no information, and nothing to back up your allegations.

you're likely a lost cause, but I'll offer this for anybody that wants to learn: https://www.google.com/search?client=ub ... 8&oe=utf-8

neither the hoses, nor the added humidity chambers will vary significantly in volume, therefore the flow rate, and ability to determine inhalations and exhalations will not be appreciably changed with an extra 6 feet of hose, or a humidity chamber. there's no give in them, they're not going to cause respiratory fluctuations in the flow rate.

all anybody has to do is zoom in on the flow rate chart in the data from their machine to see this fact.

While you are at it please explain who Jedimark is referring to in this post.

I'm not interested in getting into jedimark's problems with an idiot 'guest' troublemaker on a forum.

[Jenk2k]

No offense intended, but there may be better results if you address the psychological components of why this is occuring.

There are very real psychological effects of using CPAP. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about using humidified cpap, and in fact, is better in the long run for tissues. They will get irritated over the years by blowing pressurized dry air over them. The turbinates were not meant to deal with pressurized air =)

I would encourage you to look at why you have issues here. Also, make sure your doc is getting all of your data. If you're not getting enough pressure, it could be causing all of this.

Interestingly, I have a Ph.D. in biological psychology. I also have a severely deviated septum which makes breathing through my nose harder than it might otherwise be. My pulmonologist is aware of my pressures. That was the first issue we addressed. Given that such a high percentage of CPAP patients are unable to use these units (18%-83% depending on the population being studies & criteria used to determine "compliance") I'm actually doing better than many (or most).

None of the above, including the citation of 'studies,' directly address why you feel the need to have icy air or your feel like you are going to suffocate. What you're currently doing appears to not be working for you. With the caveat that you know you best, I'd say your quest to go to such great lengths to get the result you're looking for is well outside of norms. My sense, anecdotally, is that the vast majority of the reason people are having trouble tolerating CPAP are: shitty DME providers and mask fit, inadequate sleep study, should be on autopap, and psychological issues with tolerance. Your complaint with tolerating CPAP is an outlier, not the norm. Why not consider addressing root cause? Especially if the machine is having to overcome variable pressures because of a nasal issue, that can significantly affect tolerance of CPAP.

I have had two nasal surgeries, one to remove adenoids/uvula and do some ablation. The 2nd to do more ablation and turbinate reduction. They both made a massive difference in tolerating CPAP (autopap) for me. Also, I made a quantum leap when my doctor switched me to autopap. The algorithm is certainly way better than the sleep techs titrating the machine for me.

[Jenk2k]

No offense intended,

likewise.

There is absolutely nothing unsafe about using humidified cpap, and in fact, is better in the long run for tissues. They will get irritated over the years by blowing pressurized dry air over them. The turbinates were not meant to deal with pressurized air =)

the only time that "pressurized air" is "blowing" over your tissues is if you've got your mouth open, and are using a nasal mask/pillows and you're letting the air blow in your nose and out your mouth (or, the other way around if using an oracle mask) otherwise, there is no blowing, just your lungs sucking air in and out like they do all day long.

this is a purely semantic response. non value-added.

[palerider]

There is absolutely nothing unsafe about using humidified cpap, and in fact, is better in the long run for tissues. They will get irritated over the years by blowing pressurized dry air over them. The turbinates were not meant to deal with pressurized air =)

the only time that "pressurized air" is "blowing" over your tissues is if you've got your mouth open, and are using a nasal mask/pillows and you're letting the air blow in your nose and out your mouth (or, the other way around if using an oracle mask) otherwise, there is no blowing, just your lungs sucking air in and out like they do all day long.[/quote]


this is a purely semantic response. non value-added.[/quote]

if you feel that the difference between "pressurized air blowing over them" and the fact that there is no air "blowing" over the airway tissues is purely semantics.... well then, I'm not sure what further information can be gleaned here, other than to say that the subset of cpap users that use no added humidity for years with no deleterious side effects is certainly non zero.

the air coming from a non humidified cpap is no drier than the air that's "blowing" over the tissues the rest of the day.

of course, this isn't scientific.

simple answer, just do what's most comfortable, for you.

[Jenk2k]

Again, a purely semantic, argumentative sentence, particularly when positive pressure is achieved by a motor commonly known as a "blower" and when the humidifier option is a dominant recommended treatment used for comfort.

Probably another example of why I've been here a month and have read 50 or so posts of people being generally butthurt by tone and 5-10 people whining about leaving the forum.

[palerider]

Again, a purely semantic, argumentative sentence, particularly when positive pressure is achieved by a motor commonly known as a "blower" and when the humidifier option is a dominant recommended treatment used for comfort. .

if you don't care about accurate technical details, that's entirely up to you.

you'll find that manufacturers refer to the part as a "flow generator".

it indeed does blow air, but the air that it blows goes in through the filter, past the turbine, through the humidifier/hose, into the mask, and then blows out through the mask vent.

it doesn't blow into your nose, throat or lungs, if indeed it were blowing through your respiratory system, it'd have to have somewhere to exit, and most of us don't have gills.

enough people come here with misunderstandings of what is going on in the system, and those misunderstandings, such as "air blowing over your tissues" can, and have, been detrimental to their successful treatment. comments such has "being attached to a leaf blower" or "gale force winds" or "blow the mask across the room" and similar hyperbole. not realizing that the only reason that there is such airflow with the mask off is because the machine is vainly trying to bring the entire room up to pressure, impossible, since it's using the self same room air.

perhaps you're right and your generalizations are "close enough", even though they are demonstrably wrong, and perhaps no-one in the future who reads them will get the wrong answer, and go down a less than optimum path for themselves.... or perhaps not.

[Jag2]

I'm not interested in getting into jedimark's problems

It is obvious it was you.

Perhaps you should read the links you post.

Trying to reason with you is like trying to reason with a drunk person. Like trying to tell them they need to change what they are doing. Perhaps the only reason is your therapy is not working because of the things you have done to yourself but you won't hear that. Perhaps your problems more deeply rooted but there is no doubt there are problems. Maybe you need a different forum?

[epollak]

Thanks for the run of excellent responses, folks. I'm trying really hard to ignore the lack of civility in some posts & focus on the positive suggestions. I do have chronic sinus issues & maybe I try (yet again) to wean myself off my reliance on cold air. Surgery is not an option for me as I am a very bad surgical candidate due to cardiac & pulmonary issues, not to mention type 2 diabetes. Ambien usually helps me get to sleep but it doesn't keep me asleep for very long. This whole thread was triggered because my pulmonologist wanted me to try a Triology unit but the lack of a reservoir to accept ice made me wary. Given the discussion of the increased volume of the system (caused by adding a relatively large ice chamber and greater total length of hoses) possibly causing a reduction in the sensitivity of the system I'm wondering if this effect might be more problematic with the Trilogy unit than a CPAP or BiPAP?

[JDS74]

I use both an 18 inch extension and an add-on HC-150 humidifier without any loss of sensitivity in my PR 960.
I don't believe such a short addition would affect a Trilogy.
However, how you proceed is a matter for you and your physician to determine.

[JAG2]

I use both an 18 inch extension and an add-on HC-150 humidifier without any loss of sensitivity in my PR 960.
I don't believe such a short addition would affect a Trilogy.
However, how you proceed is a matter for you and your physician to determine.

I do also. It is when you add more than an 18 inch hose and the HC-150 chamber that you can run into problems. In my case this is in addition to the machines own chamber. Keep in mind that some masks also have hoses longer than others. Like I said when you are seeing zeros for events you think all is well so that is misleading. And I am sure there are those who do not use software to check how they are doing who may never know. I got suspicious when I started feeling worse after adding a longer hose to the HC-150.

As mentioned earlier there is an HC-150 with a removable bottom you could prolly put cubes into. For those who don't know to add the HC-150 you must use at least the 18 inch hose. The hose comes with the HC-150 chamber.

[Jenk2k]

Again, a purely semantic, argumentative sentence, particularly when positive pressure is achieved by a motor commonly known as a "blower" and when the humidifier option is a dominant recommended treatment used for comfort. .

if you don't care about accurate technical details, that's entirely up to you.

you'll find that manufacturers refer to the part as a "flow generator".

it indeed does blow air, but the air that it blows goes in through the filter, past the turbine, through the humidifier/hose, into the mask, and then blows out through the mask vent.

it doesn't blow into your nose, throat or lungs, if indeed it were blowing through your respiratory system, it'd have to have somewhere to exit, and most of us don't have gills.

enough people come here with misunderstandings of what is going on in the system, and those misunderstandings, such as "air blowing over your tissues" can, and have, been detrimental to their successful treatment. comments such has "being attached to a leaf blower" or "gale force winds" or "blow the mask across the room" and similar hyperbole. not realizing that the only reason that there is such airflow with the mask off is because the machine is vainly trying to bring the entire room up to pressure, impossible, since it's using the self same room air.

perhaps you're right and your generalizations are "close enough", even though they are demonstrably wrong, and perhaps no-one in the future who reads them will get the wrong answer, and go down a less than optimum path for themselves.... or perhaps not.

I am now pretty sure of it - you are one of the reasons why people have problems on this forum. Here's why: It is plainly obvious through the most basic of google searches that patents for and replacement parts available by common units are called "blower assemblies." It's also plainly obvious that referring to the component, even if by a totally wrong name, would not send someone on some downward spiral path to problems. It's ridiculous. And it's a waste of time. It's also not the point - the original point was that humidification doesn't actually suffocate people. Ever.

I'm here to share perspectives with people who have similar or the same challenges I have (or had) and to help others. Not argue with people making comments like this. You probably have alot to offer, but I don't care. I'd rather not spend my limited time reading chastisements. I understand there is a foe button here. If I keep seeing this kind of nonsense, I'll be using it.

To epollak. I'm sorry that you're not able to consider surgery. However, there are outpatient surgeries for some of these issues that might avoid general anaesthesia. They all suck to some extent.

Also, has your doctor suggested Dymista yet? My sleep doc gave me some samples of this stuff and it worked really well for me. This can also make a pretty good difference at tolerating CPAP. I have to wonder if you like the cold air because it causes the tissues to contract a little which gives you relief. The same kind of relief you might get from dymista.