Mask Liner Frustration!

[djams]

I'm trying to use mask liners with 3 different masks right now. My understanding is that they are supposed to reduce leaks.

• AirFit F20 (padacheek) First mask, used for 2 weeks and abandoned due to nose irritation.
  AirTouch F20 (same padacheek) Mask I've used ever since. Memory foam. No leak problems when using.
  DreamWear FFM (RemZzz) Loaner mask I'd like to switch to.

I simply can not get the mask liners to work for me. On all of these masks, the leaks get worse when using mask liners. As you can see below, it isn't necessarily related to pressure increases. It must be something I'm doing in my sleep that's causing them. Which I guess makes this just a venting post, since it will be difficult for you to help me unless you stand by my bed with a notebook and log all the stupid stuff I do in my sleep. Not sure I'd want that

But, I'm a newbie. And any and all advice/tips on mask liner usage will be super appreciated.

Mask liners ARE supposed to reduce leaks, right?

This chart is my AirTouch F20 memory foam cushion with the padacheek liner. The dreamwear FFM with RemZzzs liner was WAY worse than this.

[salinas212]

I've never bought or made a mask liner as any hedge against leaks. For me it's always been and continues to be"feel" and nothing more... hate the greased eel squishiness of it all. Silicone, latex, plastic or any other squeaky synthetic against my skin. Even when diving I've always used a goggle liner or lined wetsuit hood between mask and skin. All this stuff to me feels like fingernails on blackboard sounds.

[LSAT]

Unless the leaks are waking you up and disturbing your sleep, I would ignore them. They are not affecting your therapy. Don't worry about what Sleepyhead shows.

[palerider]

I'm trying to use mask liners with 3 different masks right now. My understanding is that they are supposed to reduce leaks.

Oh, my dear boy, where-ever did you get that idea?

Mask liners *TAME* leaks, ie, instead of your mask going "SQWEEEEEEEEE FART FART FART THPPPPPT!", it goes 'fffffffffffffffff"

You can still get a decent seal with them, and you need to figure out what your issue is.. but the only thing that's going to *prevent* leaks... is superglue.

[chunkyfrog]

Liners are porous which allows air to escape quietly, and to prevent
mask "burping", which causes more leaking.
They will not help fit a mask which does not fit in the first place.
They can make a mask feel cooler in a hot environment and warmer in a cold room.
They also wick away perspiration and shield the skin against irritants.

[djams]

Unless the leaks are waking you up and disturbing your sleep, I would ignore them. They are not affecting your therapy. Don't worry about what Sleepyhead shows.

Thanks! This memory foam cushion, it never makes a peep. No wakeups. My desire to use a mask liner with it is due to an unfortunate drooling incident I had recently, as well as hopefully extend cushion life.

[djams]

I'm trying to use mask liners with 3 different masks right now. My understanding is that they are supposed to reduce leaks.

Oh, my dear boy, where-ever did you get that idea?

Mask liners *TAME* leaks, ie, instead of your mask going "SQWEEEEEEEEE FART FART FART THPPPPPT!", it goes 'fffffffffffffffff"

You can still get a decent seal with them, and you need to figure out what your issue is.. but the only thing that's going to *prevent* leaks... is superglue.

Well, here is where I got the idea, but now that I read it after your description above I'm seeing it in a whole new light.

Perhaps you should write the marketing materials for these outfits, so I can understand what they're REALLY saying.

[djams]

Liners are porous which allows air to escape quietly, and to prevent
mask "burping", which causes more leaking.
They will not help fit a mask which does not fit in the first place.
They can make a mask feel cooler in a hot environment and warmer in a cold room.
They also wick away perspiration and shield the skin against irritants.

Much appreciated chunkyfrog. It's clear that I've misunderstood the various statements I've read.

[djams]

I've never bought or made a mask liner as any hedge against leaks. For me it's always been and continues to be"feel" and nothing more... hate the greased eel squishiness of it all. Silicone, latex, plastic or any other squeaky synthetic against my skin. Even when diving I've always used a goggle liner or lined wetsuit hood between mask and skin. All this stuff to me feels like fingernails on blackboard sounds.

I can sure understand this. I've grown to really like the memory foam feel of my F20. It feels odd to have the standard cushion material against my face again.

[palerider]

Liners are porous which allows air to escape quietly, and to prevent
mask "burping", which causes more leaking.
They will not help fit a mask which does not fit in the first place.
They can make a mask feel cooler in a hot environment and warmer in a cold room.
They also wick away perspiration and shield the skin against irritants.

Much appreciated chunkyfrog. It's clear that I've misunderstood the various statements I've read.

Don't feel bad... I read the same thing into the marketing when I started... (and couldn't believe those remzzzs thieves wanted me to pay 365$ a year for old t-shirt scraps, so I got one of their sample packs, *and just washed them after use!*.)

But, yeah, like our esteemed frog says, liners are usually made out of some cloth, so they're never going to seal perfectly, but they make the mask more comfy, and most leaks are much milder, and quieter...

I think you're having some other issue, like, maybe, one of pugsy's aliens sitting on your face and shoving the mask aside. (they have no couth whatsoever).

Maybe set up one of those 25$ wyze cams and have it record you at night, see if you can figure out... maybe you're turning over and dislodging things, .... you might get some hints.

[djams]

Don't feel bad... I read the same thing into the marketing when I started... (and couldn't believe those remzzzs thieves wanted me to pay 365$ a year for old t-shirt scraps, so I got one of their sample packs, *and just washed them after use!*.)

I DID see through the "single use" BS. Was planning on doing the same.

I think you're having some other issue, like, maybe, one of pugsy's aliens sitting on your face and shoving the mask aside. (they have no couth whatsoever).

Maybe set up one of those 25$ wyze cams and have it record you at night, see if you can figure out... maybe you're turning over and dislodging things, .... you might get some hints.

I believe that this is what it's going to take to troubleshoot whatever I'm doing. Figuring out how to STOP the behavior once identified is a whole 'nuther matter. But I know where to go for advice.

The inexpensive cam recommendation is much appreciated!

[palerider]

Maybe set up one of those 25$ wyze cams

The inexpensive cam recommendation is much appreciated!

They're neat little gizmos. certainly the cheapest webcams I've seen, and better quality than some that cost 3-4x as much. I've gotten a couple to play around with so far. pop a microSD card in and have it record motion during the night.

[old dude]

Unless the leaks are waking you up and disturbing your sleep, I would ignore them. They are not affecting your therapy. Don't worry about what Sleepyhead shows.

LSAT, leaks even as bad as shown in this particular SH report can be ignored?

And I was under the impression that large leaks in this range negated the effectiveness of the machine and it's ability to accurately report. Not so? That would be a great relief if that's what you mean.

[palerider]

Unless the leaks are waking you up and disturbing your sleep, I would ignore them. They are not affecting your therapy. Don't worry about what Sleepyhead shows.

LSAT, leaks even as bad as shown in this particular SH report can be ignored?

I wouldn't *ignore* them, but I wouldn't freak out over them.

And I was under the impression that large leaks in this range negated the effectiveness of the machine

Not at all.

and it's ability to accurately report.

Leaks like that hinder the ability of the machine to differentiate between centrals and obstructives... you'll see "UA" events reported,. Unknown Apnea

[Pugsy]

Did you see what PR wrote in your other thread about the leaks?

by palerider » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:09 pm
You can see, with the lower flow rate, that what's going on becomes more muddled, but it's still able to sense *some* breathing, so no apenas.

The fact that the mask pressure trace wasn't dropping off means that the machine was able to maintain therapy pressure, if the leaks are terrible, then you'll see the mask pressure trace dropping off.

Good that you're doing that digging, you're understanding more about what's happening.

If it weren't for the leaks, I'd call it a good night.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=171979&p=1267685#p1267685

While it is an ugly leak line if it is sensing your breathing and there are no flagged events or no times where it doesn't/can't sense your breathing then the AHI is probably fairly accurate. If it can sense your breathing it can sense the events. Now it might not know what to call them and you might get an unknown apnea flag if that happens.
I wouldn't want to see this every night but an occasional night and I slept good and felt good then I don't know that I would be going to super human efforts to do much about it nor would I spend much time worrying about it.

I have ugly leak nights occasionally myself...and before anyone starts screaming "mouth breathing"...I taped this night because I was trying a new mask and I was getting some ugly leaks and I wanted to make sure it was mask movement and not mouth breathing.
I slept through all this mess and actually felt decent the next day. Ended up I needed a different size headgear (smaller) and the the leak graphs weren't nearly so ugly. See below.