Canadians Being Truthful About Socialistic Medical Care

[robysue]

America...51% of Americans working hard and paying taxes to pay for the other 49% of Americans who are living on the welfare doles and doing jack diddly and dont pay taxes. That is what is causing the problem down here.

This statement about 49% of Americans as "living on the welfare doles and doing jack diddly and dont pay taxes" is just plain wrong. And it was thoroughly debunked multiple times back in 2012 when Romney made this claim during the presidential race.

It just ain't true that 49% of Americans are living on welfare. Here are some statistical numbers concerning Americans on welfare in 2013:

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

The rundown of the statistics provided by StatisticBrain.com include:

Welfare Statistics
Total number of Americans on welfare 12,800,000
Total number of Americans on food stamps 46,700,000
Total number of Americans on unemployment insurance 5,600,000
Percent of the US population on welfare 4.1 %
Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment) $131.9 billion

The percentage of the US population on welfare in 2013 was 4.1% NOT 49%

Heck, even if you add all the people on welfare, food stamps, and unemployment insurance together you get an upper bound of 65,100,000 and that's only 21% of the population, not 49%. And keep in mind that most of the 12,800,000 people on welfare also receive food stamps. And a significant number of the people on unemployment insurance also use food stamps. So the total number of people on these three government "direct $$ aid to the poor" programs is probably closer to 50,000,000 instead of 65,100,000. And 50,000,000 recipients of direct $$ aid would be about 16% of the whole US population.

Welfare Demographics
Percent of recipients who are white 38.8 %
Percent of recipients who are black 39.8 %
Percent of recipients who are Hispanic 15.7 %
Percent of recipients who are Asian 2.4 %
Percent of recipients who are Other 3.3 %

It is true that black are over represented in the welfare population relative to the percentage of blacks in the whole US population. The percentage of Hispanics in the welfare population is just about the same as the percentage of Hispanics in the whole US population.

Welfare Statistics
Total amount of money you can make monthly and still receive Welfare $1000
Total Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than an $8 per hour job 39
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than a $12 per hour job 6
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than the average salary of a U.S. Teacher 8

The Right looks at these figures as says: Welfare pays too much and so folks have no incentive to get off of it.

The Left looks at these figures as says: Minimum wage is NOT enough to live on and still leaves the worker in poverty. And no wonder we can't find quality teachers in some states---teaching doesn't pay a genuine living wage.

Average Time on AFCD (Aid to Families with Dependent Children)
Time on AFDC Percent of Recipients
Less than 7 months 19%
7 to 12 months 15.2%
1 to 2 years 19.3%
2 to 5 years 26.9%
Over 5 years 19.6%

Over a third of AFDC recipients receive aid for no more than one year. Over half of recipients of AFDC receive aid for 2 years or less. About 80% of AFDC recipients receive aid for less than 5 years. These numbers point out that the idea that "most welfare recipients" are on welfare for decades and have no desire or incentive to get off of it is largely a myth. Most AFDC aid is relatively short term help that does keep people from going hungry in this country of plenty.

And yet (as a liberal), I will note that it is also troubling that almost 20% of AFDC recipients are dependent on this aid for a long time. And that's too high. But how you get these folks to become employable is a different story altogether.

Top 10 Hourly Wage Equivalent Welfare States in U.S.
State Hourly Wage Equivalent
Hawaii $17.50
Alaska $15.48
Massachusetts $14.66
Connecticut $14.23
Washington, D.C. $13.99
New York $13.13
New Jersey $12.55
Rhode Island $12.55
California $11.59
Virginia $11.11

All ten of the top "welfare pays too much" states are states in which the cost of living in general, and the cost of housing in particular, are relatively high compared to the national average. Some states on this list are not surprises to anybody. But Alaska (with its strong conservative tilt) and Virginia (which is only beginning to turn purple) may surprise some folks.

[Ontario CPAP]

This thread is going off in a number of different directions...

It is true (as someone pointed out) part of Canada (Ontario) was founded by a lot of colonists from the early history of the United States who wanted to remain loyal to the King. Far from considering our founders traitors, on *this* side of the border, they are heroes. If you happen to look at the Ontario flag, there is a Union Jack and a shield with Ontario's motto: "Ut incepit Fidelis sic permanet" which is Latin for "Loyal she began, loyal she remains." The colonists who fled the US War of Independence and settled in Canada were granted titles as United Empire Loyalists. In this province, we name streets and schools after these former Americans who stayed loyal to the Crown.

That's Ontario -- we're the Americans who didn't want to leave the Empire. The other provinces, however, have quite different histories and stores. If you're in Quebec, for example, you'll see every single license plate is stamped "Je Me Souviens" which means "I remember." What exactly the people of Quebec remember and enshrine on their license plates is a very complex story. The Atlantic Maritime provinces are a another story (some aspects are very sad -- such as the Acadians), and the Western provinces are yet another story altogether.

Therein lies a key difference between what happens on the north side of the border from the south. We have a different relationship with our government than Americans have with theirs. It is very difficult to explain in words -- you pretty much need to live on both sides of the border for a while (as I have) to appreciate the differences.

The second paragraph of the US declaration of independence starts with the famous words "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This has connotations of individuality. In Canada, we have a different concept written in to our Constitution: "Peace, Order and Good Government." Generally, we are more likely to accept a significant role for Government in our lives, as long as the role is benevolent. We expect our leaders to run a tidy ship -- albeit a boring one.

I greatly admire the US system of government -- it is what has made the United States the most successful nation in history, but it wouldn't work here. Similarly, the Canadian system of government would fail in the US for the the simple reason we have a different view our role as citizens and the role of our governments in our lives. This is why, in my opinion, a single-payer health care system can work (with warts an all) in Canada but will not work in the US. Which is why Obamacare, in my opinion, will not work in the US because it doesn't accommodate these differences. It is kind of like using the rules of hockey for a football game, and wonder why the game breaks down in chaos.

....an earlier post asked about the role of employer insurance in the Canadian health care system. The Canadian system provides for the fundamentals of health care for everyone, but it is far from complete. Virtually no dental is covered, other than medical emergencies, and even then only the most basic of corrections. Almost all dental comes through employer benefits. Similarly regular eye care is hardly covered in Ontario, although if emergency eye surgery is required, the province would pay. Eyeglasses are entire covered through employer insurance unless you're virtually blind. For other health issues, it is a cafeteria menu of what is covered and what is not, but generally everything you need to keep alive and relatively pain free is paid for by the province, but there are a lot of things that are not, including most physiotherapy, therapeutic massage, and fertility treatments. For these you either have to pay out of pocket or take advantage of employer benefits, or both.

...another post pointed out that in British Columbia people pay a health care "premium" rather than a tax. That's political double-speak. The "premium" is an income tax. It started in Ontario when a certain politician signed a declaration that he wouldn't raise taxes if elected, but then after winning the election, imposed a heath care premium on everyone (the size of the premium dependent on one's income) and with a straight face said he didn't raise taxes. This "premium" is deducted from my paycheque as income tax. I truly hate it when politicians think we're stupid.

One method the Ontario government recovers a lot of taxes to pay for health care is a virtual monopoly on alcohol sales. If you want to purchase wine in this province you trot out to a LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario) store and pick up a heavily taxed bottle of vino. *BUT* the LCBO does their job very well. I had an American friend visit an LCBO store and be amazed by the massive selection of wines -- more than the stores in her native California. When one organization buys almost all the wine for 13 million people they have a lot of purchasing power.

So in a sense, our health care system is the most quintessentially Canadian of things -- a compromise enshrined as a government bureaucracy that we pay for though a myriad of taxes.

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

They were not just talking about 49% being on welfare, they were talking about the general attitude of many modern Americans. Americans used to be more DIY, more of the attitude "I will do it myself." And they did not have to be told to do stuff that needed to be done. Thats the sort of thing that screwed Romney when he made that 49% comment. Too much of a "I want someone else to do it for me" attitude nowadays in America.

More Americans need to step up to the plate, get off their ass and take the bull by the horns. Part of that is having the balls to tell the government to go fuck itself.

Eric

America...51% of Americans working hard and paying taxes to pay for the other 49% of Americans who are living on the welfare doles and doing jack diddly and dont pay taxes. That is what is causing the problem down here.

This statement about 49% of Americans as "living on the welfare doles and doing jack diddly and dont pay taxes" is just plain wrong. And it was thoroughly debunked multiple times back in 2012 when Romney made this claim during the presidential race.

It just ain't true that 49% of Americans are living on welfare. Here are some statistical numbers concerning Americans on welfare in 2013:

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

The rundown of the statistics provided by StatisticBrain.com include:

Welfare Statistics
Total number of Americans on welfare 12,800,000
Total number of Americans on food stamps 46,700,000
Total number of Americans on unemployment insurance 5,600,000
Percent of the US population on welfare 4.1 %
Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment) $131.9 billion

The percentage of the US population on welfare in 2013 was 4.1% NOT 49%

Heck, even if you add all the people on welfare, food stamps, and unemployment insurance together you get an upper bound of 65,100,000 and that's only 21% of the population, not 49%. And keep in mind that most of the 12,800,000 people on welfare also receive food stamps. And a significant number of the people on unemployment insurance also use food stamps. So the total number of people on these three government "direct $$ aid to the poor" programs is probably closer to 50,000,000 instead of 65,100,000. And 50,000,000 recipients of direct $$ aid would be about 16% of the whole US population.

Welfare Demographics
Percent of recipients who are white 38.8 %
Percent of recipients who are black 39.8 %
Percent of recipients who are Hispanic 15.7 %
Percent of recipients who are Asian 2.4 %
Percent of recipients who are Other 3.3 %

It is true that black are over represented in the welfare population relative to the percentage of blacks in the whole US population. The percentage of Hispanics in the welfare population is just about the same as the percentage of Hispanics in the whole US population.

Welfare Statistics
Total amount of money you can make monthly and still receive Welfare $1000
Total Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than an $8 per hour job 39
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than a $12 per hour job 6
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than the average salary of a U.S. Teacher 8

The Right looks at these figures as says: Welfare pays too much and so folks have no incentive to get off of it.

The Left looks at these figures as says: Minimum wage is NOT enough to live on and still leaves the worker in poverty. And no wonder we can't find quality teachers in some states---teaching doesn't pay a genuine living wage.

Average Time on AFCD (Aid to Families with Dependent Children)
Time on AFDC Percent of Recipients
Less than 7 months 19%
7 to 12 months 15.2%
1 to 2 years 19.3%
2 to 5 years 26.9%
Over 5 years 19.6%

Over a third of AFDC recipients receive aid for no more than one year. Over half of recipients of AFDC receive aid for 2 years or less. About 80% of AFDC recipients receive aid for less than 5 years. These numbers point out that the idea that "most welfare recipients" are on welfare for decades and have no desire or incentive to get off of it is largely a myth. Most AFDC aid is relatively short term help that does keep people from going hungry in this country of plenty.

And yet (as a liberal), I will note that it is also troubling that almost 20% of AFDC recipients are dependent on this aid for a long time. And that's too high. But how you get these folks to become employable is a different story altogether.

Top 10 Hourly Wage Equivalent Welfare States in U.S.
State Hourly Wage Equivalent
Hawaii $17.50
Alaska $15.48
Massachusetts $14.66
Connecticut $14.23
Washington, D.C. $13.99
New York $13.13
New Jersey $12.55
Rhode Island $12.55
California $11.59
Virginia $11.11

All ten of the top "welfare pays too much" states are states in which the cost of living in general, and the cost of housing in particular, are relatively high compared to the national average. Some states on this list are not surprises to anybody. But Alaska (with its strong conservative tilt) and Virginia (which is only beginning to turn purple) may surprise some folks.

[BlackSpinner]

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

If you are trying to make socialism good, that photo aint doing the job. Socialism DOES entail taking wealth from those who work hard and pay taxes and giving it to those who do not work and pay taxes.

Socialism is stealing.


Eric

[Julie]

"You are just a Canadian socialist who things you are entitled to "free stuff." That is an abomination and is shameful."

You are the abomination, should get off this forum, and take your rotten ideas with you. I don't know a single Canadian who feels entitled and nothing is free - we pay for it through taxes, but it is equitably distributed so that children of people less fortunate than others are not left out in the cold... something you and your cronies apparently don't care about. I imagine your mother cries for you when you're not around, maybe all the way to the bank. You really are as bad as they come.

[idamtnboy]

Anyone in America that will take a shower, comb their hair, put on clean clothes, show up on time, do the simple things that are asked, and treat people respectfully can get a job, hold that job and get promoted or find a better job. Anyone who tells you different is a bleeding-heart socialist out of touch with reality. Or a politician promising goodies so you will vote for him.

I'm sorry, but you're the one who is out of touch with reality.

[RogerSC]

Yeah, I really don't get equating universal medical care with "free stuff". That's just pure ignorance and so simple minded it doesn't bear discussing. Nothing''s free, my friend, and if you believe that the people in countries that have universal medical care think that it's free, why don't you visit them and find out how it works rather than displaying your ignorance for all to see?

[idamtnboy]

Dependency on the gubmint leads to protracted poverty, the entitlement mentality ....

I agree, but the solution is a hell of a lot more complicated than just figuratively kicking someone in the butt and telling them find a job.
[/quote]

[BlackSpinner]

Dependency on the gubmint leads to protracted poverty, the entitlement mentality ....

I agree, but the solution is a hell of a lot more complicated than just figuratively kicking someone in the butt and telling them find a job.

[/quote]


The majority of americans on food stamps and medicaid have jobs.

[idamtnboy]

Feeling sorry for the poor? Help them find a job.

What's your solution for the ones who are working 40 to 60 hours per week and still are in poverty? You will fight for a higher minimum wage I presume? Or how about supporting union drives for wages that will adequately support a couple with children?

[Hang Fire]

I'm sorry, but you're the one who is out of touch with reality.

Hey, I've made it through a lot of reality. Laid off in 2008 due to recession and industry moving overseas. Was told I would never find another job due to my age, downfall of the industry I had worked in for a couple of decades and poor economy.

Within two months I took a job completely out of my field making a third of what I was used to. Was promoted after one year but no raise. After 2.5 years I found another job in a different field making one-half of what I made in my field. After one year the bonuses started rolling in.

The company merged with a competitor and I was asked to be general manager. Our business has boomed in the last two years and now my compensation is 40% higher than at its peak. I'm 63 years old and have no plans to sit down and post in forums.

I accomplished all that is the last 5.5 years while working through a bad haze of untreated sleep apnea.

Now with CPAP I plan to do even more.

Anyone can do well in the good ole USA if they apply themselves.

We have too many self-pitying whiners.

[Hang Fire]

Feeling sorry for the poor? Help them find a job.

What's your solution for the ones who are working 40 to 60 hours per week and still are in poverty? You will fight for a higher minimum wage I presume? Or how about supporting union drives for wages that will adequately support a couple with children?

Hell the wages aren't the problem. Minimum wages are for high school students and retirees dawdling around. Even a Walmart cashier makes $10/hour, has good health insurance and gets a 10% discount on groceries, tires and everything else in the store.

Those household wage numbers that the libs like to make charts of overlook something critical. The average household size has shrunk. More and more people living alone. More kids postponing marriage. More women having babies without a father for support and yes I know the biological fathers are to blame also.

If you are making a low wage, straighten your act out before you start having babies. For god's sake this stuff is so basic. In my poor youth I sure as heck had enough sense not to impregnate a woman before I was financially able to take care of her and my babies.

Basic stuff. Damn government shouldn't be there to change the citizens' underwear.

You have a victim mentality. Take on a winner's attitude and get out your doldrums. What's your sorry story anyway? Stuck on a feeling?

Basic stuff. Basic stuff.

[idamtnboy]

You've never been poor, have you?

Cry me some crocodile tears.

I grew up very poor on a rundown farm in a poor rural area. Lived in a rundown farmhouse with a privy 100 yards from the house in the edge of the woods. No insulation in the house and my brothers and I slept in a room without heat.

Had a coal heater in one room and a kerosene (yes, kerosene) cook stove in the kitchen.

Fell in the creek one night and had to go to elementary school the cold next morning wearing jeans that were still damp. I only owned this one pair of pants to wear to school.

Widowed mother with six of us to take care of. When I was eleven mom broke down and went away. Brothers and I were divided up and raised by poor relatives.

Learned when I was 14 that people would pay you for working. Educated myself, advanced and later went to college at night to get the silly "credentials".

So very happy that there was no government there to coddle me. I may have turned out to be another welfare basket case feeling sorry for myself.

Don't like being poor? Move, work your butt off and show everyone respect.

A sad state of affairs we have come to today.

BTW, mother eventually worked out her problems and when we boys were adults we all made peace. One of the brothers bought a piece of land with two houses and mom lived beside him in the smaller house and enjoyed her grandchildren until she died this summer at 92.

Feeling sorry for the poor? Help them find a job.

My childhood was much the same as yours, except my mother was fortunate to hold it together through it all with a lot of family and friends and church support. All six of us went to college, 4 graduating with degrees. We've all done well, some a lot better than others. In spite of that I and my wife and kids were so broke one Christmas about 30 years ago our Christmas tree was a string of lights pinned on the bulletin board. And I was holding down a full time job at the time. We have have worked with hard working immigrant families who still barely had enough to live on, although they did improve their lot in time. What you may not realize is that in today's society is it costs a lot of money to be poor. They get hit with all kinds of fees to cash paychecks because they don't have enough money to open checking accounts. They pay car insurance one month at a time and get stuck with extra processing fees. The list goes on.

Yes, there are free loaders out there, but being poor and dependent on government assistance does NOT equate to free loading and laziness.

[SuddenlyWornOut45]

Why should my hard work go to taxes to pay for bums who dont want to work and who just want to live on welfare, medicaid, foodstamps and "free stuff?" I say to hell with people like that and let them starve to death.

My mother thinks the same thing basically as I do. She thinks entitlement programs are abused severely in the USA. Like I said in an earlier post. When FDR originally set up all this welfare crap down here after the Great Depression, it was all originally intended to be a last ditch, survival program for people who had suffered true catastrophe. It was NEVER intended to be a "lifestyle." But a "welfare lifestyle" is exactly what it has turned out to be for the great majority on entitlement programs. And now, decades later, these people believe they are "entitled" to such programs. I say they entitled to starvation if they dont want to work and want to continue to live on taxpayer doles.

The reason Canadians dont feel entitled is because Canadians are brainwashed socialists. You people think socialism is normal.

Eric

You are the abomination, should get off this forum, and take your rotten ideas with you. I don't know a single Canadian who feels entitled and nothing is free - we pay for it through taxes, but it is equitably distributed so that children of people less fortunate than others are not left out in the cold... something you and your cronies apparently don't care about. I imagine your mother cries for you when you're not around, maybe all the way to the bank. You really are as bad as they come.