OSA- two week titration

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
rese86
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:44 am

OSA- two week titration

Post by rese86 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:11 am

Hey, I'm new here so hello! I was diagnosed with severe OSA over a year ago and have been on cpap since. My neurologist is concerned that I was not at the right setting or might still be having apnea's because I'm tossing and turning, constantly waking up and my memory has not improved. (Oh I'm 25 yo, female if that helps/matters.) So he wanted me to do this 2 week titration thing. The machine I have is "older" so I had to actually do a rental (at no cost!) but I have slept even worse since starting this! It's been about 8 or 9 days now and I don't understand! I decided to get the encore viewer software so I could monitor things on my own as well. I'm pretty pro active in my health especially since I'm relatively young and have so many issues (acid reflux, liver problems, migraines, etc). My neuro (he is a board certified sleep doctor, I just originally started seeing him because I was having severe headaches so he'll always be my neuro lol) anyways he set the default min/max settings for this 2 week thing. My prescription before was 12 and maybe I don't understand how this works but according to the EncoreViewer the average pressures used well I'll just copy and paste cause I'm not sure what they mean exactly but they are nowhere near my old setting.

Auto CPAP Summary (Philips Respironics)
Auto CPAP Mean Pressure 6.1 cmH2O
Auto CPAP Peak Average Pressure 7.5 cmH2O
Average Device Pressure <= 90% of Time 8.3 cmH2O

And I guess this might be helpful too

Image


It looks my AHI is good but I'm sleeping horribly! I wake up frequently, I do NOT feel rested! And I have had an increase in my headaches. I haven't been able to take my migraine medicine until tonight because of an antibiotic I was on so that will help but I don't want to have to take medicine every day when I was down to once a week ya know? And the RERA I hadn't heard about before but that may be whats waking me up. It gives the average per hour and looking at the wave chart thing I don't wake up every hour but sometimes I'm waking up more than the 2 or 3 or 5 times per hour that it says. It just averages out to that. It's so frustrating.

I got off track I think? I was mainly wondering if it's normal for the pressure to be so much lower than my actual prescription. I have actually spent the most time at a 4! And with severe sleep apnea that is nowhere near where I need to be that I am sure of. And less than hour at 12? Maybe it's a gradual titration thing? I'm hoping someone here will have some answers for me. I just had to wait till Thanksgiving weekend to look all this up

rese86
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:44 am

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rese86 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:29 am

Also, I didn't want to create a new topic just for this but I am wondering if it is worth investing in a pulse ox for overnight readings? Given the fact my neuro thinks my migraines are related to my osa and I'm still having them pretty regularly it just makes me wonder what my oxygen levels are doing at night. I see a few people on here have them but not sure what makes one decide it's time/worth it to get it.

Thanks again. Hopefully someone will see these posts.

cflame1
Posts: 3312
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:55 am
Location: expat Canadian in Kentucky

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by cflame1 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:43 am

if you're concerned about pulse/ox... why not just get a rental on that as well... if it doesn't show anything that way you don't have the investment in something that doesn't impact you. If it does impact you then you can invest in one.

Get the doc to rx an overnight with one.

_________________
Mask: Hybrid Full Face CPAP Mask with Nasal Pillows and Headgear
Additional Comments: also have various other masks and a Legacy Remstar Auto Bipap with BiFlex

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 64153
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by Pugsy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:20 am

Some people find that the pressure variations with an APAP machine actually disturbs their sleep. They are just super sensitive to pressure changes. Perhaps you are one of those. For those people trying to use APAP we usually suggest a tight range with min 2 cm below average and max 2 cm above average. Or sometimes even tighter. You sure don't seem to need 12 very much based on this report. Hard to say since we don't see the detailed graphs.

4 cm is probably too low and they is why AHI at 4 cm is higher. These machines actually raise the pressure very slowly in response to event precursors and the events will happen and be gone before the machine gets to sufficient pressure to deal with the bulk of the events effectively. So wide open starting at 4 cm just lets the events happen. Having a minimum closer to optimal pressure gives the machine a better head start.

So crappy feeling could be the events allowed at lower minimum pressure or simply the pressure variations or a combination of each. Also it could be other factors not related to cpap therapy..pain, meds, insomnia, bed comfort, meds, etc. If you are waking frequently for any reason that will surely mess with your sleep cycles and we need nice normal sleep cycles for the body to get the full benefit of the restorative powers of sleep.
Did you wake often before CPAP therapy? Have trouble getting back to sleep when you do wake up?

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

If you want to try the Eclipse mask and want a special promo code to get a little off the price...send me a private message.

rese86
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:44 am

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rese86 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:54 am

It's hard to know why I am waking up. If it is the pressure changes I wouldn't know it was any different since I'm just waking up I guess.

I can't find my original sleep study results but I was waking up somewhere between 40-60 times an hour. The second I fell asleep (before any actual apneas) my oxygen levels dropped to the 80's. Originally I was put at 11 for the pressure but my doc bumped it up to 12 for some reason I can't remember. I see him usually every month or every other month. He's pretty good at staying on top of things.

As for before cpap therapy, well before the sleep study even, I had no clue I had OSA. In fact, I thought it was going to come back negative! I was just having a headache, granted it was every day for nearly two months... but I lucked out with the neuro I went to since he is the head of the sleep center as well. I would have a hard time falling asleep but I didn't remember waking up. Even if I only slept 5 or 6 hours at night when I did wake up I woke up feeling wide awake. I later learned this is because of the adrenaline and stuff your body produces when you stop breathing or something like that. But I was mostly just tired during the day. I do have severe anxiety. I was abused growing up and raped as a teen. I don't think I have PTSD but I know people who have suffered abuse have more issues with their sleep. I also have frequent nightmares which doesn't help.

I would say this week is just super stressful with the murder of my cousin but I've been not sleeping well for a few weeks. Hence this whole titration thing. It does make sense that the machine doesn't increase the pressure quickly enough to deal with the events going on though. I only have a few days left and then I can return the stupid thing lol. I'm curious to see if I sleep any better at the higher pressure after being off it for so long. I follow up with my neuro Dec 5th so I'll have the official results then.

Oh yeah, I am on meds but I've been on most of them for years. And I do have a bad shoulder. I can admit the pain has gotten worse lately but I'm not sure if it's the weather. I live in Alaska and it's been in the single digits or below lately. Actually it's 10 degrees right now. Heat wave!

Janknitz
Posts: 8430
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by Janknitz » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:11 pm

Can you post the complete data page, instead of just the daily details chart? We can tell a lot more by looking at the graphs. My suspicion is that the machine is having to "chase" the apneas when it's at a wide open setting for titration, and that's why you aren't getting much relief. If the pressures can be narrowed up a little more, you might start to feel a little better.

HOWEVER, sounds like you have a knowledgeable doctor working closely with you, so you may not want to change settings while he's collecting data during a home titration. But we can still take a look at the charts and see what might be happening.
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

rese86
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:44 am

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rese86 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:57 pm

I have no idea if this is what you meant and if it was, I didn't know how much to include...this is basically last night's sleeping chart. I did get up for a few hours (thats when I came on here lol) so that's the difference in time. And I don't think I set the time correctly anyways.

It didn't upload the way it looked here as far as size and focus But I created an album on photobucket. Here's the link. Figured it would be easier and better than spamming you guys with 9 photos lol. http://s1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd459/rese86/OSA/

User avatar
rested gal
Posts: 12883
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rested gal » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:23 pm

rese86, you're doing a good job trying to get help with your therapy -- both from your doctor and from digging into this forum.

I don't think the waveform data screenshots that you put up in PhotoBucket are what Pugsy and Janknitz were asking to see.

I believe what Pugsy and Janknitz would like to see is the graph that's found on each "Sleep Therapy Daily Details" page from Encore Pro or Encore Viewer. The chart you put up in your first post was "Daily Events per Hour." The graph they want to see (and that I'd want to see) is on the same page where you found the "Daily Events per Hour" chart you showed in your first post, but the graph appears higher up on the page than the "Daily Events per Hour" chart does. Graph will be in the top of that page; the chart you posted is in the bottom of the page.

The "Sleep Therapy Daily Details" graph they want to see would look something like this, although this example is from a bilevel machine. Seeing the graph lines for "Pressure", "Therapy flags", and "Leak" are usually more helpful than seeing "events per hour" charts.

Image
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
ALL LINKS by rested gal:
viewtopic.php?t=17435

rese86
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:44 am

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rese86 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:00 pm

Oh my bad! I got what you were looking for this time.

Image

Thanks for being so patient and helpful. I'm good with computers and stuff but this software is new to me and theres so many different graphs lol. Thanks for not making me feel like a loser

User avatar
rested gal
Posts: 12883
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by rested gal » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:16 pm

Ya done good, rese86. Thaaaat's the right picture!

What a beautiful low leak rate you're getting - lucky you!
rese86 wrote:I'm pretty pro active in my health especially since I'm relatively young and have so many issues (acid reflux, liver problems, migraines, etc). My neuro (he is a board certified sleep doctor, I just originally started seeing him because I was having severe headaches
Pugsy wrote:crappy feeling could be the events allowed at lower minimum pressure or simply the pressure variations or a combination of each. Also it could be other factors not related to cpap therapy..pain, meds, insomnia, bed comfort, meds, etc. If you are waking frequently for any reason that will surely mess with your sleep cycles and we need nice normal sleep cycles for the body to get the full benefit of the restorative powers of sleep.
rese86, what Pugsy mentioned could very well be at the bottom of your feeling bad. In other words, it could be "anything." My bet on what's causing a lot of your feeling awful during this two week trial with an autopap with the minimum set as low as it can go ( down at 4 cm ) is... that the minimum pressure is too low. It does look like a straight CPAP pressure of 9 or 10 will serve you better. That's not a criticism of your doctor doing this trial at 4 - 20, although I think one week like that would have been enough. At the end of one week (if I were him) I'd have wanted to look at a download of the detailed data, and I'd have looked at each session's graphs like the last one you posted. From that, I'd probably have changed the range some by raising the minimum to 7 or 8 (leaving the max at 20, since you're not hitting anywhere near that anyway. ) In other words, I'd have wanted to see how it goes during the final week of the two week trial with the machine set at 7 (or 8 ) to 20.

As Pugsy said, there can be a multitude of reasons for continuing to feel bad -- reasons that have nothing to do with the effectiveness of "CPAP", which can be doing its part of the job great at keeping the airway open. Yet your sleep or general health could still be awful for reasons other than obstructive sleep apnea.

But I'm not a doctor, and it does sound like yours is really working well with you to try to help you. Just as Jan said, it sounds like he's a good one. That's smart of him to want to take a look (through this autotitration trial) what CPAP pressure will do a good job for you at home.
Janknitz wrote:sounds like you have a knowledgeable doctor working closely with you, so you may not want to change settings while he's collecting data during a home titration


This is a good idea:
cflame1 wrote:if you're concerned about pulse/ox... why not just get a rental on that as well... if it doesn't show anything that way you don't have the investment in something that doesn't impact you. If it does impact you then you can invest in one.

Get the doc to rx an overnight with one.
Many people have posted on the forum that most DMEs will do one overnight pulse ox recording for free if a doctor orders it. Since your O2 dropped so precipitously at your sleep study, that would be a good thing to look at, while using a CPAP at home, whether its done for a night during this trial, or for one night later when you're put on a single pressure again.

Good luck, and let us know what he says when you have your after-the-auto-trial follow up appointment.

Very sorry about your cousin's death. That has to be adding to the stress in your life at this time.

My edit: Went back to put a space between the numeral " 8 " and the closed parenthesis mark. Because 8 followed immediately by ) turns into this: ... the "cool" emoticon smiley.
Last edited by rested gal on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
ResMed S9 VPAP Auto (ASV)
Humidifier: Integrated + Climate Control hose
Mask: Aeiomed Headrest (deconstructed, with homemade straps
3M painters tape over mouth
ALL LINKS by rested gal:
viewtopic.php?t=17435

journey
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:34 am
Location: Australia

Re: OSA- two week titration

Post by journey » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:46 pm

It is great to see you taking charge of your treatment and I wish you well with it. You clearly have a number of things to deal with and it may take a while to identify and resolve them in turn. It appears like the ppneas are able to be controlled with your treatment. An O2 study seems logical to assess if that is impacting.

There are people on this forum with far more knowledge than me on assessing these charts. I will say however that from a practical perspective when I was assessed in the sleep study with about 46 AHI and given a recommended pressure of 8 initially I received an Auto PAP set with a wide range by the provider (4-12). I found that I was averaging 6.5 pressure with AHI of less than 1.5 which was much more comfortable than higher pressures. I have subsequently tightened the range of the APAP as I too found that large changes in pressure caused me to wake at times.

In principle the pressure required to keep your airway open may not be as high as 12, which what your study seems to be indicating. We are all individuals and the reaction that people have can vary a lot. Hang in with the assessment process. OSA may not be the only issue at play for you but once you have confirmed that the apneas are under control with treatment that is a really great step forward.

All the best to you.

J