Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
tonyhap
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by tonyhap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:42 am

I'm using an S8 with full face mask since 2007 with pressure of 13. I am a 77 male. During the last few years I feel I have become a lighter sleeper who can easily doze with a dull book or boring TV program. I don't seem to build up a 'high depth of need' for sleep as I can go to sleep before that stage is reached.

I go to sleep on my side with never a problem, but after more or less an hour I remove the mask, consciously or unconciously, and continue sleeping for maybe hourly periods for the rest of the night. If I refit my mask, I cannot get back to sleep as I seem to be too wide awake. I am not aware of being tired at the start of the day. Only of getting tired more easily as the day progresses - less stamina.

My logic(??) is that I don't now have the depth of tiredness needed to overcome the pressure and presence of a full face mask unless I'm fully tired.

If time and schedule permits, after lunch I will get into bed, put on the mask, and go easily to sleep wearing the mask for maybe an hour. If time permits I might sleep without the mask for another 30 - 40 minutes. Any lunch time sleeps do not appear to affect the nightime sleep. Often, without the after lunch nap, I get to experience extreme jet lag about 5pm. But luckily it can pass within the hour.

Is there a similar thread, subject, somewhere? Is anyone else experiencing this type of behavior, routine?

Regards,
Chris

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 Elite CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Full Face Mask F P Simplus

User avatar
Julie
Posts: 19898
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:58 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Julie » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:55 am

Is your bedroom relatively cool - it can make quite a difference to staying asleep.

Do you take any meds?

tonyhap
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by tonyhap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:51 am

I assume you are saying a cooler temperature is ideal for sleeping? The thermostat is set to lower the temperature at least 2°C, sometimes 4°C. What description, item, in my first post made you mention room temperature?

Medication is usual blood pressure control, low dose aspirin and cholesterol control.

Thanks for your interest,
Chris

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 Elite CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Full Face Mask F P Simplus

tonyhap
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by tonyhap » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:48 am

I took your advice, Julie, to the extreme. I set the house thermostat to 17°C. I closed the bedroom door. I put an extra blanket on the bed. I opened the window blinds and the casement window about 2 inches. The room temperature dropped to 14°C.

My time on the CPAP machine did not change. My sleep periods after that were much longer with less time between them staring at the ceiling or walls. Overall a night with much more sleep. If that is all I can get, I will take it. Thanks for your suggestion.

Regards,
Chris

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 Elite CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Full Face Mask F P Simplus

User avatar
LSAT
Posts: 13229
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:11 am
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by LSAT » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:51 am

I'm Tony's age and similarly have reduced the amount of sleep I need. I have been averaging 6.5 hours with many nights at <6. I have never napped in the afternoon. I think It may have to do with the reduced amount of activity compared to the working years. We keep our bedroom at about 67 at night....

_________________
Machine: ResMed AirSense™ 10 AutoSet™ CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: Fisher & Paykel Vitera Full Face Mask with Headgear (S, M, or L Cushion)
Additional Comments: Back up is S9 Autoset...... Buckwheat hull pillow
Last edited by LSAT on Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cpapian
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:00 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Cpapian » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:57 am

Tony, it concerns me that your nap is an hour with the mask and if time allows 30-40 minutes without the mask. If you are asleep, keep the mask on. Otherwise you are building bad habits.

Your machine is useless unless you are masked up and using it.

If an hour is your limit with the mask, try wearing the mask during the day while watching tv or reading for two hours. Repeat daily until it improves your nighttime mask duration. Be tough with yourself about this. 😴

_________________
Mask: AirFit™ P30i Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear Starter Pack
Additional Comments: SleepyHead , P10 and Dreamwear FFM, Airfit N20

tonyhap
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by tonyhap » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:13 am

As my basic S8 machine is 11 years old, I just bought an AirSense 10 Elite. I set up the ramp time to use the Auto option which just uses approx 4 cm
pressure to purge the mask of used air until it senses I am asleep. Then it ramps up to my pressure of 14 cm. This means I can get back to sleep in the
early hours of the morning when I am not so tired as there is no rushing air noise or air being blasted on my face to keep me awake.

Since the time at 4 cm pressure plus the ramp up time is remarkably consistent at 31 minutes, I doubt that the machine is really sensing when I
fall asleep. I think it could just use a timer. Plus, how could it detect when I fall asleep?

The downside is that, I believe, those 31 minute periods do not count as usage time since the air is not being pumped at therapy pressure.

All the above offered to see if it can help others with similar problems to mine.

I never used the humidifier with my S8 as I never had any dry mouth problems. But now with the Elite I am having dry mouth problems even with
the same mask and using the humidifier. Another challenge to solve!

Regards,
Chris

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 Elite CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Full Face Mask F P Simplus

D.H.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by D.H. » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am

To the OP. Did the problem start (or get noticeably worse) at the time you switched machines? If so, maybe something is set differently on the new machine (even if that does not appear to be the case). Also, if this is the case, you need to look at everything related to the changing of machines. It's even possible that the old machine wasn't putting out the set pressure, and you need to set the new one to deliver what the old one was delivering.

_________________
MachineMask
Additional Comments: Auto PAP; 13.5 cmH2O min - 20 cmH2O max

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 63941
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Pugsy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:26 am

tonyhap wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:13 am
Plus, how could it detect when I fall asleep?
Supposedly by your flow rate or breathing pattern. Asleep breathing is quite different from awake breathing even though we may not notice it.
As to just how accurate this "auto ramp" feature really is.....no way to prove or disprove that I know of short of using a real EEG to measure sleep status.

My starting pressures aren't really conducive to running any experiments to see if I could spot accuracy issues with my AirSense or I would give it a shot. I am pretty good at distinguishing awake vs asleep breathing most for the most part.
If I can think of a way to make it work with my pressures I may give it a try later.
tonyhap wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:13 am
The downside is that, I believe, those 31 minute periods do not count as usage time since the air is not being pumped at therapy pressure.
Even if this were true it shouldn't be that much of an issue unless someone is in the "must meet compliance" stage of things and they are barely making the minimum 4 hour usage and if that's the case they got bigger problems to work out anyway. Like why so little sleep using the machine.

About the dry mouth....how about medications being a factor?
Not everything is because of cpap.
Also...sometimes our body's needs simply change. Overall hydration levels change.
Maybe it's related to mouth breathing and for some reason you are doing more mouth breathing than you used to.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

If you want to try the Eclipse mask and want a special promo code to get a little off the price...send me a private message.

User avatar
Julie
Posts: 19898
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:58 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Julie » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:03 am

Is there a reason you continue to ramp? Most of us don't bother at all once we've been on Cpap for a short time.

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 63941
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Pugsy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:11 am

Julie wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:03 am
Is there a reason you continue to ramp? Most of us don't bother at all once we've been on Cpap for a short time.
He might just like it. After all his pressure is fixed at 14 cm and he has been using it for years and the body is just accustomed to ramp and doesn't like change.

I have tried 14 and it's not a lot of fun and if I had to start out with 14 cpap mode fixed...right from the beginning ...I would most likely be using ramp also.
I would probably start it higher than the default of 4 though.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

If you want to try the Eclipse mask and want a special promo code to get a little off the price...send me a private message.

tonyhap
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by tonyhap » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:34 am

I set up the ramp time to use the Auto option which just uses approx 4 cm
pressure to purge the mask of used air until it senses I am asleep. Then it ramps up to my pressure of 14 cm. This means I can get back to sleep in the
early hours of the morning when I am not so tired as there is no rushing air noise or air being blasted on my face to keep me awake.
The choice of Ramp time I make is Auto. I do not choose a ramp time. The graph below shows that the Elite CPAP machine automatically incorporates a ramping up over time. This ramping up over time is what I was referring to - machine driven, not manually chosen. I am pretty sure I am asleep before the ramping starts.

Regards,
Chris

_________________
Machine: AirSense™ 10 Elite CPAP Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Full Face Mask F P Simplus
Attachments
Auto.jpg
Auto.jpg (41.63 KiB) Viewed 433 times

User avatar
Pugsy
Posts: 63941
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Pugsy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 am

If it bugs you that you think the machine isn't getting up to pressure fast enough because it is not sensing you are asleep...just switch over to manual ramp timer with duration of your choice.

ResMed thinks their new Auto Ramp is the greatest thing since sliced bread but maybe it isn't so perfect in its sensing for some people.
It's all based on air flow and sometimes people simply have different air flow patterns.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Mask Bleep Eclipse https://bleepsleep.com/the-eclipse/
I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

If you want to try the Eclipse mask and want a special promo code to get a little off the price...send me a private message.

D.H.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by D.H. » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:02 am

Pugsy wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:53 am
If it bugs you that you think the machine isn't getting up to pressure fast enough because it is not sensing you are asleep...just switch over to manual ramp timer with duration of your choice.

ResMed thinks their new Auto Ramp is the greatest thing since sliced bread but maybe it isn't so perfect in its sensing for some people.
It's all based on air flow and sometimes people simply have different air flow patterns.
I disabled the ramp back in 1999 and never had any use for it since (four machines later). I don't even think all CPAPs had ramps at the time.

_________________
MachineMask
Additional Comments: Auto PAP; 13.5 cmH2O min - 20 cmH2O max

User avatar
Ron AKA
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Aging & Changing Sleep Patterns

Post by Ron AKA » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:29 am

Chris, I am approaching 70 and find I can't sleep as long as I used to. I also do tend to doze off when watching TV which isn't the most exciting (golf). I have some suggestions for you to consider.

Auto Ramp

The name of this feature is misleading, as it really is not a ramp like the previous models of timed ramps. With the manual ramp you could set the machine to ramp from say 4 cm to 14 cm over 20 minutes. You hopefully do not notice the ramp up and fall asleep before the 20 minutes is up. It worked, but if you fall asleep after 10 minutes you have about another 10 minutes of possibly ineffective treatment, and may experience some apnea events before you are at full treatment pressure. The auto ramp solves this issue, but also creates others. It really is more of a triggered start treatment switch than a ramp. I find it does detect sleep reliably in me, and starts treatment fairly quickly when I fall asleep quickly. But that is the trick, falling asleep quickly, isn't it? I think part of the secret and often overlooked, is the starting ramp pressure setting. Often it is left at the default 4 cm which is too low for most people. It is not comfortable and they have a hard time going to sleep. What you need to do is experiment with starting pressures. I currently have mine set at 6.6 cm. I find that most comfortable and most likely to get me to sleep. This is more important in the new Auto Ramp mode, because you stay at that pressure until the machine thinks you are asleep, or it times out at 30 minutes. Then the ramp isn't really a ramp, it is almost like an off on switch as it ramps up fast at 1 cm per minute.

So my suggestion is to go into the Clinical Menu and try setting different ramp start pressures. I would suggest 6 cm as a starting point. Here is how to get into the Clinical Menu. Adjust it until you feel you have just the right amount of air for going to sleep comfortably.

ResMed Clinical Menu

Does the auto ramp work? It sure does for me. See the SleepyHead chart below. It started at initial bedtime in about 10 min and perhaps a touch more after my P break at 5:30. And you can see how fast the "ramp" is. Almost straight up. Like I say, more of a switch than a ramp.

Mask

This is a very personal issue but I started out on the AirFit P10 nasal pillow mask. It is quite comfortable but I was having issues with mouth leaks. I recently tried the Mirage Quattro full face, and I can say it is much much less comfortable. In fact I am now back to the P10 again and trying the chin strap method to stop mouth leaks. So much more comfortable. May not work for you but if you are pulling your mask off during the night, a leaking nasal pillow mask in certainly going to be better than no mask and no CPAP. I like the P10, but I have heard good things about the F&P Brevida. Might we worth a try. The first step is getting through the night with any kind of mask on.

screenshot-20180409-075335.png
screenshot-20180409-075335.png (123.34 KiB) Viewed 411 times
Last edited by Ron AKA on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.