What if...?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
HoseCrusher
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What if...?

Post by HoseCrusher » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:36 pm

What if our perception of illness is wrong?

What if our focus is too narrow and we spend a lot of time discussing the minutiae and the expense of understanding the bigger picture?

What if the body is actually smart?

What if the body responds to stimuli in a logical manner with the intent of getting back to the normal state of health?

What if we loose focus on the cause of the problem?

OK a lot of questions. Let's see if we can discuss them.

If I fall down and break a bone in my leg, I go to the doctor. My situation is evaluated. Imaging is done and the problem is well defined. My leg is put into a cast to allow the body to heal naturally, and I am given crutches to allow me to go about my everyday activities while at the same time limiting the force applied to the damaged bone.

The body heals the broken bone and life goes on.

What if a few years later I am still on crutches...?

I had some issues and had a sleep study done. The results indicated that my sleep was disrupted with arousals several times an hour and my oxygen levels were dropping lower than is what is considered healthy. I was handed a CPAP machine, given some basic instruction and sent on my way.

8 years later, I am still using my CPAP machine...

What if the actual cause of the problem is outside the focus of the soft pallet closing off my airway?

Looking from a global perspective (and perhaps a little outside the box) what can cause sleep problems?

If I correct the stimuli that my body is working under, can I also improve my sleep quality? Will this allow my body to walk in its natural state of health?

How many times have we heard the story of someone feeling tired, having a sleep study done, discovering that they have problems, given a CPAP machine and used it only to find out that they had little or no relief from the tiredness?

It seems that if the "problem" was a closed airway, the CPAP machine which is excellent at eliminating that issue would bring relief. But it doesn't.

What if the problem is deeper and the closed airway is simply a symptom. This wouldn't be the first time the medical community focuses on treating the symptom and ignores the root cause.

What causes the airway to become unstable during sleep? If we said excess weight, how do we account for the thousands of people who are overweight and don't suffer from sleep apnea? And how do we account for the multitude of thin people that suffer from sleep apnea? If we said age, how about all those who grow old gracefully and enjoy restful sleep without a machine?

I ran across something that got me thinking... actually several things.

What if our response to life's circumstances has us stuck in the sympathetic nervous system fight or flight state?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ARDCi6OGjw

What if our diet is lacking in some essential nutrient?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAWoOkX3KU

Or what if we never learned to breath properly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C933t2GjAGE

What if the root cause of the problem goes beyond the symptoms we are treating? Do we dare look beyond the symptoms?

If we address the root cause will that lead to improved health?

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chunkyfrog
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Re: What if...?

Post by chunkyfrog » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm

What is the life expectancy of the Amish?

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Snoregone Conclusion
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Re: What if...?

Post by Snoregone Conclusion » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:26 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm
What is the life expectancy of the Amish?
A lifetime! :lol:

More seriously, an interesting question. More interesting would be checking out "primitive" cultures that have not adopted modern diets and ways, and identify how many of them have OSA (or not) and why: perhaps it's something that is weeded out by natural selection where medical care is different, lifestyles, etc.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: What if...?

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:37 am

Perhaps a life eschewing the unnecessary, vain, and violent.

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zackds
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Re: What if...?

Post by zackds » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:54 am

Snoregone Conclusion wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:26 pm
chunkyfrog wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm
What is the life expectancy of the Amish?
A lifetime! :lol:

More seriously, an interesting question. More interesting would be checking out "primitive" cultures that have not adopted modern diets and ways, and identify how many of them have OSA (or not) and why: perhaps it's something that is weeded out by natural selection where medical care is different, lifestyles, etc.
there have been studies of hunter gatherer tribes sleep quality. this is just one example but they found that the members lived on average about 50 years. they attributed it to poor sleep due to inadequate calories. their bodies were constantly trying to get them to eat, so they couldnt truly rest. from a book called 'why we sleep' that will scare the crap out of anyone who reads it

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Last edited by zackds on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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zackds
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Re: What if...?

Post by zackds » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:06 am

HoseCrusher wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:36 pm
What if our perception of illness is wrong?

What if our focus is too narrow and we spend a lot of time discussing the minutiae and the expense of understanding the bigger picture?

What if the body is actually smart?

What if the body responds to stimuli in a logical manner with the intent of getting back to the normal state of health?

What if we loose focus on the cause of the problem?

OK a lot of questions. Let's see if we can discuss them.

If I fall down and break a bone in my leg, I go to the doctor. My situation is evaluated. Imaging is done and the problem is well defined. My leg is put into a cast to allow the body to heal naturally, and I am given crutches to allow me to go about my everyday activities while at the same time limiting the force applied to the damaged bone.

The body heals the broken bone and life goes on.

What if a few years later I am still on crutches...?

I had some issues and had a sleep study done. The results indicated that my sleep was disrupted with arousals several times an hour and my oxygen levels were dropping lower than is what is considered healthy. I was handed a CPAP machine, given some basic instruction and sent on my way.

8 years later, I am still using my CPAP machine...

What if the actual cause of the problem is outside the focus of the soft pallet closing off my airway?

Looking from a global perspective (and perhaps a little outside the box) what can cause sleep problems?

If I correct the stimuli that my body is working under, can I also improve my sleep quality? Will this allow my body to walk in its natural state of health?

How many times have we heard the story of someone feeling tired, having a sleep study done, discovering that they have problems, given a CPAP machine and used it only to find out that they had little or no relief from the tiredness?

It seems that if the "problem" was a closed airway, the CPAP machine which is excellent at eliminating that issue would bring relief. But it doesn't.

What if the problem is deeper and the closed airway is simply a symptom. This wouldn't be the first time the medical community focuses on treating the symptom and ignores the root cause.

What causes the airway to become unstable during sleep? If we said excess weight, how do we account for the thousands of people who are overweight and don't suffer from sleep apnea? And how do we account for the multitude of thin people that suffer from sleep apnea? If we said age, how about all those who grow old gracefully and enjoy restful sleep without a machine?

I ran across something that got me thinking... actually several things.

What if our response to life's circumstances has us stuck in the sympathetic nervous system fight or flight state?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ARDCi6OGjw

What if our diet is lacking in some essential nutrient?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAWoOkX3KU

Or what if we never learned to breath properly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C933t2GjAGE

What if the root cause of the problem goes beyond the symptoms we are treating? Do we dare look beyond the symptoms?

If we address the root cause will that lead to improved health?
i think the easy answer to your questions is, like joe rogan says about dick pills, if these 'doctors' solutions were real, dont you think everyone would know about them?

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chunkyfrog
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Re: What if...?

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:10 am

The Amish have an average life expectancy in the 70's--about the same as the rest of us.
Their expectancy has been like this for generations,
even when "outsiders" in the US expected to live barely into their forties.
It appears that modern medicine barely balances the ravages of "civilization".
WTH are we paying for?

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: What if...?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:15 am

HoseCrusher wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:36 pm
What if our response to life's circumstances has us stuck in the sympathetic nervous system fight or flight state?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ARDCi6OGjw

What if our diet is lacking in some essential nutrient?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAWoOkX3KU

Or what if we never learned to breath properly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C933t2GjAGE



Image

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: What if...?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:17 am

zackds wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:06 am
i think the easy answer to your questions is, like joe rogan says about dick pills, if these 'doctors' solutions were real, dont you think everyone would know about them?
HoseCrusher has a long history of being sucked in by woo and rejecting science. Of course, he has never found one bit of woo that actually did anything good for himself.

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jnk...
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Re: What if...?

Post by jnk... » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:56 am

What if all hypothetical questions led to answers that made perfect sense?

The direct answer to your question(s) is that medicine does not presently have a miracle pill or surgery for every physical limitation.

Certain issues of the eye that surgeries or pills can't fix still require that someone wear glasses the rest of his life if he wishes to see well.
Certain issues of the ear that surgeries or pills can't fix still require that someone wear a hearing aid the rest of his life if he wishes to hear well.
Certain issues of the teeth that surgeries or pills can't fix still require that someone wear dentures the rest of his life if he wishes to chew food well.
Certain issues of the nervous system that surgeries or pills can't fix still require that someone use a wheelchair/walker/cane to get around well.

Likewise, certain sleep-breathing issues that surgeries or pills can't fix still require that someone use PAP to sleep well.

Many sleep-breathing issues become much more than mechanical over time. The brain and nervous system change to adapt to the disorder. At first, the nervous system wakes the brain up so that it can give priority to breathing. Eventually the brain begins to ignore that signal in order to give priority to sleep, until blood-gas issues and breathing struggles cause enough panic to jar the brain awake. This destroys sleep, and eventually, if bad enough, left untreated, destroys life itself in just about every possible way. No one knows how to rewire the nervous system and brain once those changes have happened. Since there is no pill or surgery to fix any of that, PAP comes to the rescue to keep us alive and to make it possible for us to get enough good sleep to be able to drive a car safely the next day without killing ourselves or others. PAP greatly improves our quality of life and actually solves the problem for many of us--instead of just treating a symptom, which is all that many other medical treatments do for other disorders.

One nice thing about PAP is that unlike glasses, hearing aids, dentures, and wheelchairs/walkers/canes, PAP is only needed at night while we are asleep, instead of complicating or limiting what we do during our waking hours--not to mention that it's use and maintenance require much less effort and time on our part than, for example, brushing our teeth and flossing after meals.

There is beauty in the solution that PAP provides. Don't let confusion or illusion get in the way of seeing the elegance in what it safely accomplishes with ease and virtually no side-effects.
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Goofproof
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Re: What if...?

Post by Goofproof » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:45 pm

Next year, they will come out with the Tricorder, it will change medicine. Jim
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jnk...
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Re: What if...?

Post by jnk... » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:09 pm

Goofproof wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:45 pm
Next year, they will come out with the Tricorder, it will change medicine. Jim
I almost took my tricorder prototype to the Qualcomm Tricorder XPRIZE cosplay convention last year, but my Tribble costume was still at the cleaners and my transporter went down.

https://tricorder.xprize.org/
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Goofproof
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Re: What if...?

Post by Goofproof » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:27 pm

jnk... wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:09 pm
Goofproof wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:45 pm
Next year, they will come out with the Tricorder, it will change medicine. Jim
I almost took my tricorder prototype to the Qualcomm Tricorder XPRIZE cosplay convention last year, but my Tribble costume was still at the cleaners and my transporter went down.

https://tricorder.xprize.org/
Don't eat after midnite, we can only feed so many. Jim
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire

D.H.
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Re: What if...?

Post by D.H. » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:33 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm
What is the life expectancy of the Amish?
I think about ten year less that the rest of us.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: What if...?

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:32 pm

D.H. wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:33 pm
chunkyfrog wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm
What is the life expectancy of the Amish?
I think about ten year less that the rest of us.
THINK???
I got my data from READING.
You should actually READ before you "think"--because what happens between your ears
DOES NOT QUALIFY AS THINKING.

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