Prevalence of "Moderate-to-Severe OSA" in the 40-85-Yrs. General Population

Still think, Recording Oxymetry tests every 10 years for the general population who have insurance would be a good idea and recommended for those who have to pay for testing out of pocket as well.

There things at this point were anyone who has basic medical insurance gets covered... like I have dental insurance. So I get two cleanings each year minimum that are "Free" though I more then pay for them each month, the understanding that basic maintenance of my teeth, is better then waiting for something bad to happen that drives me into a dentists office only after it's gotten really bad, that then costs a lot of money to fix.

Coming up with basic tests, that could be used to screen the general population, vs a lame ass questionnaire would be really helpful.

I feel that OSA is an un-diagnosed epidemic... How many medical conditions we hear about all the time could be caused by or made worse by untreated OSA?

People shouldn't find out they have OSA, only after they crash their car, or have a heart condition that winds up with them in the emergency room, were some doctor or nurse tells them they have apnea. They really need to work out something better then what they're doing now.

So many red flags coming up in research that shows OSA popping up everywhere as possible complicating factor or cause in so many health issues in our society.

Even children having it causing mis-diagnosed learning disabilities or ADHD or other issues. All related to bad sleep.

It seams like we're a pill pushing society... we've been told that real medicine comes out of a pill bottle, and anything else is less effective or too much trouble.

Maybe it'll get better... not so sure. There's more mention of Apnea as a whole, you hear about it more. I'm just not sure if people are taking it seriously enough.


Rest Well,

Gryphon

Blood O2 is NOT an appropriate test for screening for OSA, since a negative result proves absolutely NOTHING about sleep.

Talk about a lame test!

jnk... wrote: ↑

Fri May 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Blood O2 is NOT an appropriate test for screening for OSA, since a negative result proves absolutely NOTHING about sleep.

Talk about a lame test!

It has value of its own where an AHI by itself isn’t the most meaningful because it’s so low: a full sleep test is better, sure, and measures more, but knowing pulse oximeter readings throughout the night can still be a cheap way to get some useful information.

For me, on the take-home sleep test, had it only been AHI, I was well below most treated here: but, oxygen levels got down low enough most of the time it still made sense to try it.

I don’t regret I decided to try it: I regret not having known to get tested sooner, because I didn’t know my “normal” has never been normal, as I’ve clearly had a problem all my life.

Arlene1963 wrote: ↑

Fri May 24, 2019 4:40 am

zoocrewphoto wrote: ↑

Fri May 24, 2019 3:41 am

It is really hard to see the symptoms when they creep up over years. I really assumed that I was less energetic due to getting older and gaining a little weight. I thought I slept pretty well. I did wake up 2-3 times a night for the bathroom, but I have always gone more than other people, even during the day. I knew I snored, but I misunderstood what sleep apnea really was, so I didn't see it as a big deal....until I watched a news story about sleep apnea and how it caused high blood pressure, and how that led to heart attacks and strokes. I already had high blood pressure, and my doctor was tellingme I was at a higher risk of stroke. She never mentioned sleep apnea. After that news story, I scheduled an appointment so that I could request a sleep study. Before that happened, I shared ahotel room with a friend. The next day, she asked how soon my appointment was. I asked if I was really that loud. She said no, but I snored scary. Gasping, not breathing, really scary. Nobody ever told me that before.

I watched Wanda Sykes performing stand up comedy on a show called "Not Normal" yesterday (Netflix). It was so interesting because as she spoke about various issues I thought "I wonder if she has sleep apnea?" She mentioned weight gain, age (55) hot flashes, how tough menopause was, etc.

Then, right at the end of her performance she revealed that she's started snoring so loudly recently that her wife records her because the snoring keeps her awake at night. Apparently Wanda played the recording to her doctor and he said it sounds like OSA and she should have a sleep study.

Sykes was horrified at the thought because she thinks it incredibly unsexy to wear CPAP.

Let's hope she's joking and that if she does have OSA she gets it treated. Her wife will thank her, no more snoring for starters!

I used to travel with my sister, and she would yell at me several times a night. She thought that I was quieter if I rolled onto my other side. What she didn't realize was that I was awake on my other side. So, basically, she needed to wake up so that she could sleep. Neither one of us slept well. Then I got my cpap machine. Wow. I slept andfelt better. She slept well and stopped yelling at me. I was nervous about sharing a hotel room with friends, but I realized that the cpap was less embarrassing than snoring all night. So, it is much easier for me to share a hotel room now.

jnk... wrote: ↑

Fri May 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Blood O2 is NOT an appropriate test for screening for OSA, since a negative result proves absolutely NOTHING about sleep.

Talk about a lame test!

well.. the other argument is it's better then nothing... And that's what most people get now.

I know that O2 isn't the end all and be all... but I was having HORRIBLE desats in REM (in the 50's)... If I had been able to use blood O2 as a screening method I wouldn't have had to wait 10+ years or more to get a decent test - I would have been able to wear a little watch on my wrist and find out sooner.

You can buy one to keep for less then the cost of most standard lab tests at a doctors office... and if you do come up positive as having an issue your going to have a good reason to go in for a real sleep study, and evidence to argue with some nitwit doctor who's telling you - your not old, fat, stereotypical, enough to have sleep apnea so it must be in your head, here take these pills...

I see Blood O2 as a good testing technique because ultimately it should be incredibly cheap and 100% non evasive to administer, as I was saying, you can buy your own a recording oximiter and you don't even need a medical license to know if there's a problem... if your numbers come up lower then normal (we can all "Google" what Normal should be) then you have a problem and need to go in and see a specialist.

If you don't have any problems with blood O2... well then you're where most people start off now... which is a quirky questionnaire as to weather you can stay awake long enough to watch a movie with your family, or read a book, or not wreck your car. Questionnaires are so subjective, and most of the clinical tests that would provide actionable results are sooooo damned expensive, no insurance company or self paying person is going to run out to get a full sleep work up multiple times in their life time to know. O2 testing gives actionable data for little cost and no risk and can be used for multiple nights to get more of a baseline.

If it helps, they should have a statement to the effect that a negitive O2 test doesn't mean you don't have a problem but, a positive test is an obvious flag and you'd know to get treatment.

Sure O2 testing isn't the best but, statistically I bet if 80% of insured adults in the world were to be given one tomorrow, we'd have a whole lot more people then we do now going through the steps of treating a problem they didn't know they had yesterday, before taking that lame test.

We screen regularly for so many other medical conditions, like types of cancer or for diabetes, or metabolic disorders in blood work, what's one more test that's ultra cheap to administer, if it catches lots of people who would never get treatment at all? And for insurance costs.. if the argument that having everyone pay for a 02 test would be a big exspence, I think it would be off set by the cost savings of having more people diagnosed with Apnea, who would be costing the health care system more money treating all the cronic conditions that are caused by or made worse by untreated apnea. You keep a few people from having a stroke and needing round the clock nursing care and that's going to help pay for a lot of Blood O2 tests, not saying it's perfect, but I think it's a start.

Rest well,

Gryphon

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 am

better then nothing

For those with serious OSA without significant desats, that type of screening would be exactly that: nothing. Nothing is not better than nothing, IMO.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 am

I was having HORRIBLE desats

That is not true of many with very serious OSA.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 am

You can buy one

Why bother? Once someone is on PAP therapy, the important metric to measure is AHI, not O2. And the only adjustment available is to machine pressure, which should be monitored by something giving data MUCH more sensitive than mere O2 readings.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 am

if you do come up positive as having an issue your going to have a good reason to go in for a real sleep study

Actually, the exact opposite is true, according to the AASM. People with negative results must have a PSG in order for it to be considered a real screening. People with positive results can just go ahead with a PAP trial. That's the scientific non-guesswork approach for population benefit that has a chance of doing more good than harm and in a financially responsible way.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 12:12 am

it's a start.

Actually, for many patients in need of PAP to save their lives, the false negatives provided by home recording pulse-ox readings could very well spell their end.

Some patients have obvious desats, yes. But that in no way means O2 tests or any other forms of HSTs save money by denying people PAP trials. The only way they save money in a responsible fashion is if the HSTs are used to have people skip the line directly to PAP so that only those with negative results get the PSG on their way to qualifying for a PAP trial with their insurance. Any other use of HSTs, such as a vain attempt to prove someone should be denied a PAP trial, is abuse of the purpose of the test and is a form of malpractice that should be prosecuted, IMO.

I've said it a hundred times and will gladly say it again. A HST using desats may be able to prove someone has a sleep-breathing problem. That does NOT mean it has any use whatsoever at even hinting at evidence that someone does NOT have a sleep breathing problem. Anyone who buys a recording pulse-ox that shows perfect saturation all night has just proved that they really need a PSG to get any useful information about their sleep breathing, since they have proved to themselves with the pulse-ox that the pulse-ox is completely unable to give them any useful information about their sleep breathing at all.

OSA is not the sort of condition one should play around with using dinky pretend tests. OSA kills. Missing a high percentage of the people with OSA using such a pretend test is irresponsible. Life matters more than that. Any person who records his own blood O2 and then thinks "Oh, that shows that I don't need to worry about the quality of MY sleep yet" has been fooled by some pseudo-scientific reasoning dished out by an ill-informed doc or has been misled by an irresponsible, dangerous post made somewhere in a forum. That is my position.

Not that I feel strongly about it, or anything.

I think your missing my point... I was saying if the pulse ox shows nothing that means exactly nothing...

BUT... if you are exsperianceing desats. That, is something and, That, would be reason to get a doctor to take notice. No one should be exsperianceing desats of any significance for any reason, ever.

The point I was trying to make of hinting a person could buy their own pulse ox wasnt that I wanted everyone to go out and buy one, it's that they could, there for it should be cheap enough to have a bunch of pulse ox devices for patients to use for such a screening. I cant go out and buy an xray machine or a sleep lab, but a pulse ox in its limited capacity is affordable, IE not exspensive.

For those who used a pulse ox and have no desats I know that means nothing.

This is hoping a lot but, a doctor that is screening their patients with this method should have enough brains to tell their patients that a negative result doesnt mean everything is fine.

You will give me this at least...? If they do use a pulse ox, and they do have significant desats,... you do agree, that that would be a problem yes? Those people would know they had a problem and have data to back up their concerns. Yes?

Right now... besides having a patient go out of their way to tell their doctor that they have an issue and maybe fill out a questionnaire there is (as far as I know) absolutely no standard screening procedures for people to be checked to see if they have sleep apnea. I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of the doctors going out of their way to ask everyone if they have sleep apnea or even bring it up in conversation.

Having a test every 10 to 15 years would catch some people and bring up the conversation for some people as well. Do you have a family history? do you snore? Etc.

Do I think having everyone take an actual portable sleep study home with them every 10 to 15 years would be better? Of course I do.

The recording oximeter idea is just an idea... its likely not going to happen anyway, no sense in arguing over a testing regime that doesnt even exist.

Restwell,

Gryphon

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

if the pulse ox shows nothing that means exactly nothing

Exactly. Which is not better than, uh, nothing. Which was my point.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

screening their patients with this method should have enough brains to tell their patients that a negative result doesnt mean everything is fine.

Which defeats the purpose of "screening" at all, in this context.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

If they do use a pulse ox, and they do have significant desats,... you do agree, that that would be a problem yes? Those people would know they had a problem and have data to back up their concerns. Yes?

No. It is meaningless, because it often means, in the general public, that the pulse-ox was not used properly.

Gryphon wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

The recording oximeter idea is just an idea... its likely not going to happen anyway, no sense in arguing over a testing regime that doesnt even exist.

It is a very old idea that has been used repeatedly to deny patients a PAP trial over the decades. It IS happening. It is called HST. So it DOES exist. But it is often used wrongly as a way to tell a patient that there is evidence the patient does not have a sleep problem at all and that therefore he does not need a real test. Happens all the time. Happened to me. Has happened to a number of my friends who have had an HST and were then told it proved they did not have OSA. Which was a lie. That they believed.

jnk... wrote: ↑

Mon May 27, 2019 6:38 am

OSA is not the sort of condition one should play around with using dinky pretend tests. OSA kills. Missing a high percentage of the people with OSA using such a pretend test is irresponsible. Life matters more than that. Any person who records his own blood O2 and then thinks "Oh, that shows that I don't need to worry about the quality of MY sleep yet" has been fooled by some pseudo-scientific reasoning dished out by an ill-informed doc or has been misled by an irresponsible, dangerous post made somewhere in a forum. That is my position.

Not that I feel strongly about it, or anything.

Hmm ...
I do agree with your point of view. CPAP should be available to whoever feels like to try it. What bothers me is what will natural selection do to CPAP ?

Would you get accepted in the army with a CPAP's ?

Human life in general cannot go one if we all are having severe OSA early on.

The way we are poisoning life on earth, may need some more attention. The odd increase of cancers, allergies, immune diseases… in people under the age of reproduction is not normal. Should be a warning. But we only see what we want to see. For power, money and religion we accept to spread our waist and poison all over the earth. If this does not change CPAP will not save us.

esel wrote: ↑

Tue May 28, 2019 5:21 am

The odd increase of cancers

At least in the USA, age-adjusted cancer incidences are decreasing.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue May 28, 2019 5:39 am

esel wrote: ↑

Tue May 28, 2019 5:21 am

The odd increase of cancers

At least in the USA, age-adjusted cancer incidences are decreasing.
cancer incidence trend.jpg

Sorry but I am not able to understand this graph ???

Statistics are further difficult as the scoring of cancer changes all the time. The ability to identify some cancer in blood samples by the quantification of sncRNA (small non coding RNA) is still new and need further adjustment. The multiple families within the sncRNA and their specific function on other cells are also not well understood.
many kids are treated for leukemia ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30188232

or search for "circulating micrornas in cancer origin function and application"

esel wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 3:32 am

Sorry but I am not able to understand this graph ???

It's easy. The graph shows a significant decline in cancer incidence in the U.S. from 1991 to 2015.

esel wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 3:32 am

or search for "circulating micrornas in cancer origin function and application"

You made the claim that there is an "odd increase in cancer". If you want to discuss this, you are obligated to provide a legitimate source for your claim. The obligation is not on me. I have provided a legitimate source showing a decrease in cancer incidence (age adjusted).

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 6:05 am

esel wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 3:32 am

Sorry but I am not able to understand this graph ???

It's easy. The graph shows a significant decline in cancer incidence in the U.S. from 1991 to 2015.

esel wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 3:32 am

or search for "circulating micrornas in cancer origin function and application"

You made the claim that there is an "odd increase in cancer". If you want to discuss this, you are obligated to provide a legitimate source for your claim. The obligation is not on me. I have provided a legitimate source showing a decrease in cancer incidence (age adjusted).

Actually the claim was the following, in context:

odd increase of cancers, allergies, immune diseases… in people under the age of reproduction

Just to be fair.

jnk... wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 7:28 am

odd increase of cancers, allergies, immune diseases… in people under the age of reproduction
Just to be fair.

So, he is obligated to provide multiple legitimate sources?

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 7:31 am

jnk... wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 7:28 am

odd increase of cancers, allergies, immune diseases… in people under the age of reproduction
Just to be fair.

So, he is obligated to provide multiple legitimate sources?

No obligations on this board. Other than responding to actual statements made.

I see no connection between the statement he made and the chart you posted. But hey, I'm not always that bright--as you well know is the case with me after your seeing my posts over the years.

My issue is always that an increase/decrease in diagnoses does not necessarily indicate an increase/decrease of incidence. But, hey, I have a lot of my own issues in such matters.