Phillips / Philips Respironics recent recall notice discussion thread

[SirGaspAlot]

I registered my dreamstation ASV today online and my DME said they will be he ones that handle Philips. I told them I dont want anything Philips after all this which they understood. Its astonishing how it feels to become reliant upon something and how it feels to be told to immediately stop using it, especially where complex apnea and the risk involved. Im counting my blessings thus far. I does pain me to know how many folks are straight out of pocket for these. My heart goes out to you all.

Yes I do expect that, especially since its under warrantee. Secondly because my life depends on it.

Who should pay for replacement machines from another manufacturer if not the patient? Why should insurance companies pay if the machines don't meet the criteria for replacement? Do you really expect Philips to supply a machine from another manufacturer to replace your Philips CPAP machine? We don't even know yet what the repair plan is. Maybe in the end everyone gets a new machine from Philips.

Yes, I ordered a Resmed Airsense 10 autoset with my own money. It is partly about the recall and partly from reading all the reports here about the Resmed Airsense 10 simply being a better product. My AHI is decent, but not great, with the Dreamstation even after lots of playing with the settings. I am still tired every day even with eight hours in bed.

[Dan_McD]

Hi all, new person here, though I did force myself to read through all the posts.

I see a lot of folks jumped on the Airsense 10, and I likely will as well, but is anyone still waiting on the Airsense 11? Is there much reason to? The videos I have seen don't make it look that that big of an upgrade, but I thought i would ak about it before plopping down the cash.

Also, my wife (who also has a Dreamstation, lucky us) is thinking about getting a HDM Z2 as the replacement. Anyone here have experience using it as a daily driver... at least until Phillips figures things out?

I appreciate all of you more than you know!

It's a tough call. I'm thinking about it myself. From the reports I've seen there isn't much difference functionally other than a touch screen, although appearance seems different. A DME did tell me the Airsense 11 will have a smaller water chamber. If that's true, it could push me to the 10 because with my Dreamstation I'd empty a tank in about 5 hours.

The main advantage I see to waiting for the 11 is the longer time parts, such as water chambers, are available. It seems to me it starts getting harder to find those parts when a machine is two generations old. So, when the 12 comes out it may start getting harder to find water chambers for the 10. I'm back to using my old M-series machine now, and I've not been able to find any left over water chambers for it anywhere. I have two I still have that I could clean up for use, and that's it. An 11 may give an extra 5 years or so of easy part replacement.

On the other hand, as others have pointed out, the 11s may be in short supply due to chip shortages and other constraints. In addition, the longer you wait, the more people are going to learn about the recall and start buying up inventory. It might be buy now or have difficulty getting later.

I think you are right on the 11 not being much of an upgrade other than the touch screen. I watched a YouTube video and that seemed to be the conclusion. Actually ResMed sent the YouTuber a cease and desist letter on his AirSense11 reviews. Funny.

I just started using the ResMed 10 to replace my Dreamstation. I think about 11 or 12 days now. I didn't measure the 2 water chambers in ounces, but just looking at them the 10 appears larger than the DS. As you know the DS has 5 settings for the humidifier. The ResMed 10 has 8. My short time use with the ResMed, all other things being the same, It seems the ResMed does not use as much water. As an example I used the DS at a 1 to 3 setting and the ResMed at a 5 setting. The DS would almost be empty and the ResMed would still have plenty of water left in it. Additionally I still would have some mouth dryness with the DS and if I moved the DS up towards 5 my mouth would be slimey. The 5 setting on the ResMed is just about right so far. I like the 10. ResMed did a good job on that machine.

[HairyReasoner]

My short time use with the ResMed, all other things being the same, It seems the ResMed does not use as much water. As an example I used the DS at a 1 to 3 setting and the ResMed at a 5 setting. The DS would almost be empty and the ResMed would still have plenty of water left in it. Additionally I still would have some mouth dryness with the DS and if I moved the DS up towards 5 my mouth would be slimey. The 5 setting on the ResMed is just about right so far. I like the 10. ResMed did a good job on that machine.

Thanks for your review of the humidification system. That makes a good point. I'm looking entirely at the size of the tank, but I need to consider the Resmed may also be more efficient in humidification and use less water. That's a big deal for me, because I sometimes have been extra tired and slept past the 5 hours when the tank goes dry. I'm afraid of harming the tank or humidifier by running the heater with the tank dry.

[Pugsy]

For those questioning water chamber size between the DreamStation, System One, or ResMed AirSense/AirCurve.

ResMed....380 ml

DreamStation ...325 ml
System One....325 ml

[Dan_McD]

If it weren't for users of SoClean and other ozone sanitizers, do you think this recall would have ever occurred? Would have Philips or users for that matter taken notice of minute bits of foam particulates or given thought about off-gassing VOC's. Companies generally don't go looking for problems unless there is enough substantive evidence to do so ($$$). The reporting of foam bits was particularly minimal and easily could have been ignored as too infrequent to investigate. The accelerated degradation from ozone seems to have maybe been a contributing factor to examine what was occurring with the foam and prompt a further look.

Should we curse the users of SoClean for the recall that has been so disruptive or thank them for uncovering a potential health risk ?

Yes I believe the recall would still happen just because of the 3 chemicals off-gassing and the VOC's. A reputable reviewer on YouTube believes Philips is using So-Clean as a scape goat. It is true that most Apnea Product Manufacturers do not recommend ozone cleaners, but never the less the Dreamstation, by Philips own testing, is emitting chemical gas' into your lungs via the black foam.

[reader2580]

Yes I do expect that, especially since its under warrantee. Secondly because my life depends on it.

You must still believe in Santa Claus if you believe Philips is going to replace everyone's machine with another manufacturer. It would still take a upwards of a year for another manufacturer to make four million CPAP machines in addition to their normal sales. Philips' obligation is to provide you with a safe CPAP machine and it will be another Philips machine. We don't know what the exact plan is yet, but it sounds like some or all of the machines will be replaced with the Dreamstation 2 that doesn't have the foam issue.

If your ford vehicle breaks do you expect Ford to replace it with a new GM vehicle?

I'm almost certain there will be a class action suit over this. The settlement will probably be a coupon for a Philips mask or supplies for your Philips CPAP machine, or something else of little real value.

[Superman33]

I've read through all 39 pages and haven't seen this asked, so I hope I haven't missed it.
I have a SystemOne A-Flex. I opened it up and pulled the offending sound dampening foam out. (Which is really easy and only took about 15 minutes total). With the foam out, what does everyone think about the safety of using the machine?
My thought is no foam, no off gassing, just a little more noise. That's not a problem with me since I run a family right by my bed for the white noise anyway. I can't really afford another machine (I have another SystemOne as a backup...) Both are registered with Phillips, but like everyone else nothing from them. Insurance really isn't an option. I've tried sleeping without the cpap and that's not an option either. I'm just trying to crowd source an answer since Phillips isn't saying anything.
Thanks in advance for any opinions.

[Berks]

Just seeing all this. Can someone confirm for me this doesn't impact PR masks...?

I don't see masks listed anywhere but want to double check.

Thanks!

[Dan_McD]

I've read through all 39 pages and haven't seen this asked, so I hope I haven't missed it.
I have a SystemOne A-Flex. I opened it up and pulled the offending sound dampening foam out. (Which is really easy and only took about 15 minutes total). With the foam out, what does everyone think about the safety of using the machine?
My thought is no foam, no off gassing, just a little more noise. That's not a problem with me since I run a family right by my bed for the white noise anyway. I can't really afford another machine (I have another SystemOne as a backup...) Both are registered with Phillips, but like everyone else nothing from them. Insurance really isn't an option. I've tried sleeping without the cpap and that's not an option either. I'm just trying to crowd source an answer since Phillips isn't saying anything.
Thanks in advance for any opinions.

Just my opinion. You did what you had to do to take the necessary steps to keep your health, including sleep apnea, from deteriorating. Since Philips referred to the foam as sound abatement and also told us it emitted dangerous chemicals, you did what was due diligence to maintain your health. Philips did not. I think you're good to go.

[Dan_McD]

Just seeing all this. Can someone confirm for me this doesn't impact PR masks...?

I don't see masks listed anywhere but want to double check.

Thanks!

I haven't heard anything related to masks with the exception of ResMed. In a Detail/Specification sheet ResMed states they do not use polyester foam in their masks. A for instance would be their Air Touch F20 does not contain polyester foam.

EDIT: I wanted to add this note from a ResMed Mask Manual.

This product is not made with PVC or phthalates such as DEHP, DBP
or BBP.

Phthalates in particular should not be used in medical devices. (Internet search)

[boudin99]

Just seeing all this. Can someone confirm for me this doesn't impact PR masks...?

I don't see masks listed anywhere but want to double check.

Thanks!

I haven't heard anything related to masks with the exception of ResMed. In a Detail/Specification sheet ResMed states they do not use polyester foam in their masks. A for instance would be their Air Touch F20 does not contain polyester foam.

EDIT: I wanted to add this note from a ResMed Mask Manual.

This product is not made with PVC or phthalates such as DEHP, DBP
or BBP.

Phthalates in particular should not be used in medical devices. (Internet search)

Philips should have used MDI (methylenediphenyl diisocyanate) to make the insulating foam. It makes a great sound proofing foam without the hazard. Instead, they used TDI (toluene diisocyanate). In a foam form, there is no hazard to TDI - in fact, the foam in your mattress and seat cushion is most likely made with TDI. But if TDI foam breaks down - as discussed in this recall, then it does have known inhalation hazards/issues.

[biztraveler]

Why should insurance companies pay if the machines don't meet the criteria for replacement?

The cost of potential medical bills from lung cancer are way higher than a new CPAP

[palerider]

I've read through all 39 pages and haven't seen this asked, so I hope I haven't missed it.
I have a SystemOne A-Flex. I opened it up and pulled the offending sound dampening foam out. (Which is really easy and only took about 15 minutes total). With the foam out, what does everyone think about the safety of using the machine?
My thought is no foam, no off gassing, just a little more noise. That's not a problem with me since I run a family right by my bed for the white noise anyway.

As far as I know, here shouldn't be any problem with the machine if you're removed the foam.

PS, having a whole family by your bed must make a lot of noise

[ChicagoGranny]

The cost of potential medical bills from lung cancer are way higher than a new CPAP

We have no idea how many, if any at all, Respironics users will develop cancer as a result of exposure.

Among lifetime, heavy tobacco smokers, 23% develop lung cancer. And the risk to heavy smokers is cut in half after quitting for ten years.

No CPAP user has been exposed to foam VOCs for a lifetime. If all the foam in a Respironics machine were off-gassed, the amount of carcinogen is likely less than the amount of carcinogen inhaled from two packs of cigarettes.

The body protects itself well from exposure to harmful carcinogens. Tiny amounts inhaled over the course of the night are unlikely to cause any cases of cancer. There was a time when unprotected industrial workers were exposed to relatively large amounts over years. That was a problem

[MotorCity]

The cost of potential medical bills from lung cancer are way higher than a new CPAP

We have no idea how many, if any at all, Respironics users will develop cancer as a result of exposure.

Among lifetime, heavy tobacco smokers, 23% develop lung cancer. And the risk to heavy smokers is cut in half after quitting for ten years.

Comparison of smoking to inhaling harmful VOC’s 6-8 hrs a day, every day, is like comparing apples to oranges.

No CPAP user has been exposed to foam VOCs for a lifetime. If all the foam in a Respironics machine were off-gassed, the amount of carcinogen is likely less than the amount of carcinogen inhaled from two packs of cigarettes.

where did you get this data?..
Someone who has inhaled VOC’s and Poisonous foam particles nightly over the course of 5+ years or 13,000+ hours you are comparing to 2 packs of cigarettes?..this is just foolish.

The body protects itself well from exposure to harmful carcinogens. Tiny amounts inhaled over the course of the night are unlikely to cause any cases of cancer. There was a time when unprotected industrial workers were exposed to relatively large amounts over years. That was a problem

this VOC and foam particles exposure just didn’t occur over 1 night…
It was a problem with industrial workers because it happened day after day(shift after shift), week in and week out, year after year,,,same as a Phillips cpap usage.