Do any sleep MD's say that eating meal before bed...(DSPS)

Do any (or most?) sleep specialists claim that eating a semi-substantial meal (like oatmeal with some fat or protein...milk/nuts) before bed is actually BAD for someone who has Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (aka, go to bed too late and get up too late), because the digesting signals to your body that "hey, we are awake now." OR, do the specialists claim that for OSA or insomnia (mine if the onset insomnia)?

I'm just wondering what the experts say (not folk remedies). To rephrase the original question more simply, Does eating mess up either your sleep schedule (back to the DSPS) or does it mess up how you sleep?

Because sometimes I put off eating until very late in the day, one of the many reasons is that I never want food for the first 5-6 hours of my day. But then by bedtime I am so hungry that I need another MEAL (by meal I mean something substantial, with fat or protein, to hold me over) to even fall asleep, due to hunger.(I've stayed at a normal weight doing this....so I don't think I'm overeating and only perceiving it as hunger. Though I could be wrong.)

Anyways, I was wondering if those eating habits could be perpetuating (making worse) my DSPS though....like if eating your second meal for the day at midnight makes your body think that is really 7 PM aka dinner time?

Most interested in if anyone knows the "rules of thumb" the experts tell us to go by.....otherwise, general thoughts/experiences are welcome too. Thanks.

If there are rules of thumb that the experts recommend for DSPS or OSA or insomnia (I have all 3, insomnia is with the onset part)....could you guys be as specific as possible with what food types (protein, carbs, fats) we should and shouldn't be eating before bed? (i.e., is warm whole milk okay? Or should I just eat enough earlier in the day that I don't NEED calories to sleep without hunger)


The whole point of this, to sum it up, is that I feel I "need" food before bed, and I feel it helps me sleep because I"m eliminating something that can keep me up (hunger)......but I'm wondering if I am only hurting myself, and possibly making my bedtime issues and schedule issues (delayed bio-clock) worse?

It s not generally a good thing to eat within about 2-3 hours of bedtime. If I have something to eat, even 3 hours before bedtime, it is very light - ie a VERY SMALL bowl of rice cereal that is easy to digest or a small banana. I want my body to be able to really get good sleep and not be busy digesting a meal for a good part fo the night. I think digestion takes longer when one is lying down. That's just my experience though. After a meal, I find that sitting for a little and then getting up and doing things is best for my digestive system.

I sleep well and have the software so I can see that this very light snacking, that far before betime, is not affecting me at all. I have no gas or digestive problems with this and my AHI is almost always below 2.

With your machine (if you have the "Plus" model listed in your profile) the software will not give you the information about events, etc so you don't know how you are doing and, therefore, cannot determine if this "semi-substantial meal" at bedtime is causing you sleep problems. You would know if you were having gas or digestive problems though.

Even your doctor or RT cannot tell because the Plus model only tells you how long and how often you used the machine.

I think you may feel you need food at bedtime because by then you're so tired, your blood sugar's so low, that you automatically want something to 'fix' it, but it's the wrong way to go. Experts always say (not necessarily for DSPS) to make yourself have something in the a.m. with a little protein, which gets your blood sugar going properly, and don't gorge on carbs. You might be surprised to see that if you eat right (have lunch too) you won't feel the craving for much later on.

I agree with Julie. A whole change in your eating schedule (breakfast, lunch and dinner at reasonable intervals during the day) will keep your entire body working better all day and you will not crave that big meal at bedtime.

You need the food when you are going about your day, not when you are ready to sleep to restore your body.

The whole don't eat before sleeping is strange. Many cultures used to "siesta" after the big meal off the day at noon and then get back to work at 4pm
Dairy supposedly caused melatonin to be secreted.

Big meals (probably with lots of carbs) will knock anyone out, so siestas were needed. Smaller, lighter meals, if more of them, are better for everyone.

I useta have a light snack maybe a sandwich with meat before I retired. That was when I Dinnered about 5:30PM, now it's about 2-3 Hours before Bed so I don't want that lite snack before Bed.

Boy this rings a bell for me! While I'm not a doctor, from what i have learned, meals are an integral part of sychning your circaddian rhythm, but in which way exactly i don't know. It could be used as a resynch mechanism, so that together with waking up, getting light and eating, you reset the clock for the day. (there is a more technical term for this trigger/reset mechanism i guess). When you delay eating, i think you delay part of the reset.

One of the things i read recently was that the time you wake up is more important than the time you go to bed, in terms of resynching the rhythm each day. I would suspect that eating is the same. Perhaps it's not so much your midnight dinners that are the problem, but lack of food when you wake up. Bright light needs to be given within 2 hours of waking up, perhaps eating falls into the same category.

I have the same problem too, but it's a vicious circle. I eat breakfast late (it becomes lunch), then a snack, then dinner, then i am hungry again before bed. If i eat at the socially appropriate times, 3 meals, and dinner no later than 7 pm, i can get to sleep by 12 midnight. And additionally, i am hungry enough the next morning to eat a small breakfast within an hour or two of waking up. If i eat dinner later, then i also delay sleep by 5 hours (for me the 2-3 hours is not sufficient). And I'm not as hungry when i wake up.

I have also recently found that evening computer use has a bigger effect than i thought. Since i temporarily don't have internet in the house, i am finding that i can get to sleep a bit earlier. I would like to find those glasses that SU mentioned in another post. Dimming the lights in the house in the evening has also helped a bit. And exercise, that's the last key to the puzzle, at least for me. The difficulty is managing to do all the right things, every day, consistently.

My appointment with the sleep specialist for DSPS has been moved to mid october. I would be willing to compile a list of questions from forum members regarding DSPS and ask them at the appointment. Maybe i should start a new thread for that! In the meantime, pls post here as i am still under time-pressure due to the moving adventure and lack of internet. I will add the eating question you ask (not only time, but content of foods), as well as the blue glasses question.

Any other q's i should ask for you guys?

To the OP, the way you are eating will almost guarantee blood sugar problems (often alternating between high and low) probably no matter what blood tests show. Low blood sugar states, which you most likely go into unless you are in your early 20s or below can lead to sleep onset insomnia or waking after 3-4 hours of sleep. (Especially those who wake consistently after about 3-4 hours, that is very,very often due to low blood sugar states leading to cortisol release resulting in arousal.)

If you are going to eat something at bedtime then a protein containing tryptophan (especially turkey and less so milk) is you best choice. The better choice is to balance your blood sugar throughout the day. That starts with breakfast, (a good protein like eggs or better yet steak and eggs rather than oatmeal), and then small frequent "grazings" every two hours of the day (emphasis on protein, fresh vegies, fresh fruit, and less so complex carbos--starches, and last choice simple carbos--sugars) can help to keep your blood sugar more in balance during the day. The key with this is consistency in your eating. At first you may need to have the protein before bedtime, but if you consistently balance during the day, then you can let the bedtime snack go.

echo,

Thank you! That is such a generous offer. That is so great that you are seeing someone for the DSPS specifically. Is this a sleep specialist that is more knowledgable than most regarding DSPS?

I will have to think about if I have any other questions.....but I will try to let you know soon, by private messaging you, if another question comes to mind besides the eating thing. The only other one I can think of right now is.....How can you get up at the same time each morning, when you've tried all kinds of annoying alarms, and you just turn them off and go back to bed? (semi-conciously....so it's not like I make the conscious decision to be lazy). So short of having someone there to drag me out of bed, I'm not sure what works for getting up at the same time each morning?

But if that question is too complicated to ask, I understand. It might be more related to hypersomnia (the need for too much sleep) for me than anything else (I can easily sleep 10-12 hours). It's kind of a scenario where, if I did wake up naturally after 8 hours, I might be in a better spot than I am now. Because oversleeping leads to late nights, etc.

Thanks again....I hope we can stay in touch about this issue. I can't wait to hear how your appointment went! If you don't have time for my questions, it is fine, but either way, I'd like to hear how it goes for you!!!!

AHA! The light bulb comes on. Was wondering why I might have had a lousy night of sleep although all of my numbers were excellent last night. And now I realize that I changed my diabetic medication yesterday.... and was experiencing sugar lows. In rehab, they suggested that the ideal bedtime snack for diabetics might be something like yogurt and a few berries thrown in; relatively easy to digest and unlikely to disturb sleep. They STATED that anything heavy or difficult to digest is going to affect your sleep and should be avoided. I am off to check my fasting blood sugar.... although often it can be meaningless due to what they call a "leaky liver"... and that's another thing for us to google and learn about today. Sic.

toronto - is leaky liver the same as glucose dumping? ie when your liver dumps excess glucose into your bloodstream in the middle of the night because it's too low? I could never eat yogurt on an empty stomach right before bed, talk about gas galore!

CAsleep- i am not sure if this doctor is specialised in DSPS type issues. They list DSPS as one of the things they treat, at this hospital sleep clinic. Earlier this year I DID find a specialist that has been working 20+ years specifically in circaddian rhythm issues (psychologist or psychiatriast, i forget which), but was denied by my insurance (out of network etc) and it would have cost me a lot of money out of pocket. I do plan to grill the doctor, though, i have learned enough about it reading articles on my own

Yes, waking up IS the major problem. The only thing that I can use as a guaranteed wake up call is for someone to talk to me until i am in fact awake (approx 5 min). This can be either in person or on the phone! Once i am fully awake then it's ok, and i can get up. The other thing I've noticed is that if i get less than 9 hours of sleep, the alarm clock will NEVER wake me up. After 9 hours, the probability is higher! I seem to need about 9 hours minimum these days, but my body has been through a lot the past 6 years and i feel like i am still "recovering" physically and cannot therefore wake up naturally after 7 or 8 hours. Previously this threshold was at about 10 hours or even higher, but starting the hypothyroid meds really helped with the hypersomnia!

Pls feel free to PM me with questions too! The appointment is only mid-october so there's plenty of time! now let's hope this doctor is worth his money and will actually attempt to answer my questions!!