hard time stopping Ambien CR

[snoozie_suzy]

A few members here have brought up using Melatonin to promote deeper sleep. At the start of the summer I had started taking a prescription and one of the nasty side effects was insomnia. I started taking Ambien CR to combat the side effects of insomnia (boy, insomnia is almost a curse worse than sleep apnea itself). I found that I was addicted months later. Even after I stopped taking the original prescription, and logistically should no longer have had insomnia or needed to take Ambien, I found I could not fall asleep without it. Each time I would stop days of insomnia would follow, and then I would cave in again, and take one.

A couple weeks ago, I started halfing them, and then into quarters. As of one week ago, I have finally stopped. I started taking 3mg of Melatonin to help me sleep better. It has been pretty good. I mean I still have woken up here and there, but go right back to sleep. The one very curious thing I have found is that I have had some nightmares this week as well as some VERY strange dreams. I know that in general, all dreams are weird, but these are very very weird.

Anyone else who uses Melatonin experienced strange dreams like this?

Suzy

[Jere]

Congrats on getting off the Ambien. That is not always easy. It was quite a struggle for me when I finally weaned myself off it. As a life-long insomniac (yes - it is worse than apnea), I have tried melatonin with no significant results, but I do recall some rather vivid dreams.

[Snoredog]

I agree, all you have to do is compare the side effects of melatonin and the prescription drugs and it becomes a no brainer which one to use. Melatonin is dirt cheap.

Yes, melatonin can promote dreams and sometimes nightmares, some dreams may be more vivid such as in color than others. But is that bad?

I dream like crazy in the early hours and love it! Before cpap even with taking melatonin, I would go years before ever sleeping good enough to recall dreaming. Those were the periods I was the most tired and stressed.

Personally, I see dreams (even if they are nightmares) as a positive effect.

How would you compare your dreaming to that when on AmbienCR?

My doctor wanted me to try Ambien for 10 days, I did and hated the stuff, I couldn't think the next day, stuff made me foggy.

I've taken the melatonin since about 1990 in various dose levels. In all those years and only time I took it less than 1mg dose was when I tried the GNG 800mcg stuff that you stick under your tongue and it dissolves directly into the blood stream. I didn't see any real advantage over the higher dose so I went back to the 3mg tablets with calcium and B6.

Didn't you also have RLS/PLMD (sorry if I'm wrong)?
If so, do you think it helped any with that?

Insomnia: I used to have it real bad, for some reason I would just fight to stay awake, reason I started on the melatonin, before then I used ExcedrinPM or TylenolPM then I read how bad long term use can be on your kidneys, when melatonin kicks in about half hour after taking it, I'm ready to sleep.

Insomnia is another reason I talk about noise from equipment so much, a noisy mask or machine can keep me up all night long, cold air in the nares same thing. If you take other steps like getting a aussie heated hose to warm the air and prevent rainout, use a quiet mask these all seem to help with insomnia. If you get where you need another mask, I would wait and try the new Somnotech Yara (don't know if it will be using that same name) that is coming out hopefully next month. If it is like the nasal version it will be a winner, it has the same elbow system for exhaust as the Soyala so it should also be very quiet. The ability of their cushion to seal against the skin is excellent, hopefully the Full Face version will be the same, but you never know until you try it.

[snoozie_suzy]

Thanks Jere for the comments!

Snoredog,
Yes I do think the dreaming is MUCH more vivid now with the melatonin. And you're right, its not really a bad thing either way if the dream is somewhat scary. On Ambien I did dream, but nothing like this.

I had 60 PLM's in my last sleep study, but after I met with the sleep doc, he said they were at exact times of respiratory disturbence, not the other way around, so they treat the apnea not the leg movements. He said if it were the other way around, where I was getting leg movements that interrupted my sleep they would try meds, but they were at times when hypopneas and obstructions occured.

Snoredog, do you know if Melatonin is safe to take with antidepressants though? I plan on running this by my doctor next week at my appt. Infact I should have asked her prior to taking it but I just absolutely had to get of the Ambien, I couldn't stand it any longer.

Suzy

[Snoredog]

Suzy wrote:

Snoredog, do you know if Melatonin is safe to take with antidepressants though? I plan on running this by my doctor next week at my appt. Infact I should have asked her prior to taking it but I just absolutely had to get of the Ambien, I couldn't stand it any longer.

I have taken up to 100mg/day of Zoloft for nearly a year without any adverse side effects. I no longer take it.

I have also taken up to 300mg of Zyban (2ea 150mg tabs per day) for nearly a year without any adverse side effects. Zyban is the marketing name for the stop-smoking drug which is chemically the same as antidepressant WellabutrinSR. It is how I quit smoking after 30 years within a week and haven't had one in over 6 years.

However, I do like to enjoy a glass of Merlot or Cabernet and you cannot mix alcohol and the antidepressants.

Note: I've been reading more and finding nearly all prescription drugs impact your normal melatonin levels. I try and wean my self off all prescription drugs, since I was without health insurance that was easy.

You would have to ask your doctor, but I didn't have any interaction with antidepressants with melatonin.

[michael_schaap]

This is actually what lead me to the sleep doctor. An addiction of ambien CR. I was taking 25 mgs. It was the max from what he told me and I would not recommend it. One of the side effects was a kinda ammesia. I was waking up throughout the night and not remembering it in the morning. I was clearly awake... eating... watching tv or what not. Just did not remember it. My wife was the first to tell me that I had been awake after seeing I was (dirty dishes... tv left on.... ).

[Snoredog]

This is actually what lead me to the sleep doctor. An addiction of ambien CR. I was taking 25 mgs. It was the max from what he told me and I would not recommend it. One of the side effects was a kinda ammesia. I was waking up throughout the night and not remembering it in the morning. I was clearly awake... eating... watching tv or what not. Just did not remember it. My wife was the first to tell me that I had been awake after seeing I was (dirty dishes... tv left on.... ).

Memory loss is one of the biggest side effects of Ambien. Wasn't it one of the lesser known Kennedy's a year or so ago that got up at 2AM was driving in Washington DC and drove into a cement barrier, when the cops asked him what he was doing, he had no idea, he didn't even know he was driving or had any idea what he was doing there at that time of the night. Next day it was found he was on Ambien.

[snoozie_suzy]

One word of note.... I want to state that I didn't write this post to bash sleeping meds. There are many, many people in the world (with and without sleep apnea) that have terrible chronic insomnia, whereas mine was temporary due to medicinal side effects. For these people sleeping meds are the only hope of getting any rest.

Just wanted to state that for the record, so that any people reading this post who have never tried any before will be scared off. I actually did not have any of the amnesia. Sleep was actually very easy with it, asleep in like 10 mins. and didn't really wake up except usually once if I needed water or bathroom etc. It was just the "stopping" of it that I found hard. I think that the "insomnia rebound" which I experienced might be in the disclaimers on all the sleep med websites though, come to think of it.

Anyway, I think it was Krousseau who has posted in the past about Ambien, infact I think she had a link once where she described how to wean off it which might have been something like I tried by cutting the pills etc.

I will post back again after several weeks on Melatonin and see if my opinion stays positive! As some of you may know from my past posts, I have had an awful year with lousy sleep architectures, so I figure getting off as many prescription drugs as I can that may be interfering with my sleep stages might help some. I know one of the side effects on the fact sheet that came with Ambien was next day drowsiness.

Suzy

[Bear717]

hi suzy

i just joined the board and made my first thread tonight and also live on the North Shore, lol.

ive had problems sleeping for years, my father only could sleep 3 hours a night since i was a kid, im 31 now...

so naturally, i inherited the problem.

i was hooked on ambien and CR FOREVER, same things youre going through... i did however find something with low side effects without the addiction, i actually take two things and i sleep like a baby now, no bad dreams or anything...

i take a 1/2 mg of trazodone (old antidepressant, lots of serotonin, low dosage) kicks you into sleep. but you also want to check out a product sold at A New Leaf vitamin store in Beverly, MA on Cabot St. It is made by a company called New Chapter and its called Tranquilnite.

I was a skeptic at first, BIG TIME, i didnt trust homeopathic remedies at all, i was a pharmaceutical genius and didnt buy any of that crap, but what happened to me at least was amazing.

the tranquilnite has valerian root, hops, passionflower and a whole slew of ingradients that chinese medicine and native americans have used for ages. i took it and had a sleep test and i zoned straight into stage 4 replenishing sleep!! it was awesome, before i barely spent time in REM and lingered in stage 1 and 2 sleep.

so i hope that helps. give it a try, its $29 for a 30 days supply. a buck a day for a good night's sleep isnt bad

all the best

erik

[crelison]

I have been experiencing problems with insomnia for the last several years. When I first started on XPAP therapy, I thought that my sleep issues may be solved, as things did seem better temporarily. Unfortuantly not the cure I was hoping for! I have an appointment scheduled this week with my MD to get a precription for Ambien, but glad I read this thread. I will try some of the suggestions posted, in hopes of not adding yet another precription medication.

Erik, I checked on line and several on-line stores have the New Chapter Tranquilnite for around $18.oo - 19.00. You might want to check it out to save a few dollars.

Thanks to all for the information.

Chuck

[snoozie_suzy]

Chuck,

If you type in the word "Ambien" in this forum's search you will find many many experiences with it. I certainly don't mean to turn you off to the idea entirely. I actually have a friend who has taken the regular Ambien (not CR) for years. Also it seems there are other members that stopped and did not have the difficulty I had. I heard on the commercials for it that it was "not" addictive. But I found in my case it truly was. I could not sleep without it after awhile. Just read up as much as you can about it before hand. Plus it could be that if a person is just on Ambien for a few weeks vs. several months like I was, it might be easier to stop it.

Good Luck whatever you decide. Some have tried Lunesta too with even better results.

Suzy

[Guest]

With problems such as insomnia, often you have the capability of fixing it without any need for patented drugs that transfer quite a lot of your money to some multimillionare drug company CEO and feature unsettling things in the fine print such as "the exact mechanism of action is not known" and "the long-term effects of this medication are not known".

Suggestion: self-hypnosis. Go to a good, reputable, NON-COMMERCIAL self-hyponosis website (one that's not trying to sell you books or tapes or seminars), and get an "induction script". This is a way to "talk yourself down" into a hypnotic state. There are also scripts to talk yourself back up and out, but if you want to get to sleep, you may only need the down script. I've found that once you're down in the hypnotic state, sleep is very very easy to attain.

Even if the self-hypnosis doesn't work for you, go Google on "placebo effect" and do some reading before you enrich some suit while ingesting recently-developed substances without much of a track record. The placebo effect has done incredible things for people with medical problems, using no drugs at all.

"Western medicine" focuses on two things: pushing (drugs) and cutting (surgery). While they're often effective and often quite necessary, you may want to broaden your horizons about other options, too, which in some (but not all) cases can work just as well, or better, and with less risk. Insomnia can definitely fall into this category.

That said, I'm not a medical professional or a doctor, so the above is only my opinion. See your doctor and ask him everything before you do anything.

[offlineon]

As a life-long insomniac (yes - it is worse than apnea)

I disagree. It depends on the individual, but severe osa can be pretty bad too IMHO. At one time, after recovery from an accident (short coma with no apparent organic damage), my average was three consecutive days of no sleep whatsoever, out of every five; so I certainly can empathise with you Jere; it is horrible! But being worse than SDB? For some yes, for others not.

[rxcpap]

Soozie, melatonin has been used to help poeple with severe violent nightmares, as I once read in a May Clinic article, l think I can find it, ahh yes here it is.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2003-rst/1937.html

Interesting read for you.

I am just new to my cpap therapy, first week just completed, hard to adjust to the mask and all, I just was prescribed Ambien 10mg at bedtime from my
sleep specialist physician, and it definitely helps me sleep, however, I am planning on using it short term, until I get used to everything.

You might try diphenhydramine 25 mg (benadryl), for sleep, it has been recommended for OSA as well, and is also non-narcotic, and non-addicting.

glenn

[krousseau]

Insomnia has been a problem for at least 40 years. OSA-looking back maybe 5 years at the most-but diagnosed Jan 06. Have had cognitive/behavioral therapy, acupuncture, biofeedback training, psychotherapy, bicycle riding-10 mi/day, used OTC/herbal sleep aids, meditation, and read lots of boring books.
What I have learned about MYSELF:
CPAP adds another component to the insomnia problem in falling asleep-but I stay asleep somewhat better.
Reading a textbook is more effective than melatonin or benadryl.
Imagery and progressive relaxation help draw my attention away from the CPAP-and interestingly-just like most sleep aids I develop a tolerance to to them-after a couple months they no longer work.?????
In the early 90's I had a period of severe insomnia-I will never go through that again. That is when I started using prescription sleep medications I used about 90 pills a year.
Ambien CR works quite well and I use it regularly. If I take it every night for any reason (like on vacations in strange sleeping environments)-I taper off of it over a 3 wk period until I can get back to part time use. I use about 180 pills a year now.
I do have rebound insomnia if I stop it suddenly-there are no other symptoms of what would be called withdrawal. It is not addiction. True addiction has serious withdrawal symptoms usually requiring medical supervision and supportive treatment-and if you don't have that care-you wish you did-if you live through it.
I don't sleep walk, take trips to the refrig in the middle of the night, or have amnesia. There is a memory phenomenon I have that I'll call spontaneous memory-if something minor happens during the night I won't spontaneously remember it unless something reminds me of the event. Major events where I fully awaken are fully and spontaneously remembered. The example I used before is the dogs barking-I'll hear it but not "remember" in the AM until someone says did you hear the dogs barking last night-or the dogs bark and I think oh they were barking last night too. It is happening less than when I first started taking Ambien.
Ambien is a controlled substance in the same category as benzodiazepines. That does not mean it is in the same pharmacologic class as benzodiazepines. It has a different action. Ambien has street value. Ambien can be abused. It can be dangerous when taken in combination with alcohol, benzodiazepines, or narcotics. Is it really addicting? If a person has ANY problem stopping Ambien does that make it an addiction? Does the fact that I won't risk a week of insomnia mean I'm an addict. IMO-of course I don't think so .