Last Night Was First Night

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue1
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by robysue1 » Sun Sep 15, 2024 2:31 pm

Iancdub88 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:52 am
What if I just can't adapt? There have to be people that that's the case for, right?
In my opinion, the people who can't adapt are the people who just give up.

But then I'm a stubborn asshole (or so I'm told at times) and I was determined that I would not just give in to living with a problem that was going to get worse and worse the older I got, not with a family history of massive strokes and heart disease on my mother's side.

As a short-term self-help measure, I would recommend that you keep track of the good nights and the good days for now. Think of every good night and every good day as both a blessing and a sign of progress. Don't bother tracking the bad nights and the bad days, just the good ones. With the short term hope of having at least one or two good nights/days each week for the next couple of months while you continue working with your doctors on all of your problems. And don't beat yourself up when you have a bunch of bad days/nights in a row; just accept it as part of the process for learning how to sleep well with a six foot hose attached to your face. When you find yourself ruminating on how bad your sleep seems, focus on remembering the last good night even if it was a while back.

I've also taken the time to go back and re-read this whole (19 page) thread. You also are dealing with significant depression issues and issues connected to medication needed to control the depression as well as issues tied to the necessary change in your medication. And you've been dealing with a significant spike in anxiety related to worrying about the quality of your sleep. You've also tried sleeping medication, but it's not clear what sleeping pill(s) have been prescribed and how you have been taking the sleeping pills, but you have complained that they "stopped working" after a few days at least once.

In other words, you are dealing with a thicket of interrelated problems:
  • Insomnia issues that seem to have exploded when you started PAPing, but you also have had some reasonably decent nights with good sleep and you've said that it's now hard to try to sleep without the machine. (That indicates that some part of your body & brain does NOT want to go back to sleep that is interrupted every few minutes by very real mini-suffocations.)
  • Depression, which can adversely affect sleep quality. And bad sleep which can increase the depression.
  • Medication for treating depression, which lead to daytime fatigue and brain fog as well as insomnia; but not taking the medication makes your depression much worse. And so you're also dealing with the need to find a balance between the improved mood and making sure the side effects are tolerable enough to live with.
  • The anxiety reflected in the time you spend worrying about the quality of your sleep makes it harder to "fix" the sleep, but the bad sleep makes it harder not to worry. And the fact that you've had to deal with a necessary change in the depression meds while also dealing with starting CPAP just adds to the anxiety issues.
So fixing your very real sleep problems is going to involve looking at all the factors that are potentially affecting your sleep instead of just trying to put the blame on CPAP/bi-level. In addition to the sleep doctor, you need to be talking with the psychiatrist who is treating you for the depression. Let both of the doctors know that your current sleep feels really crappy and that you are dealing with a lot of middle-of-the-night wakes as well as finding yourself waking up at 5:00 AM unable to get back to sleep. Ask both of them for advice on what you should do if you wake up at 5:00 or 5:30 and you just can't seem to get back to sleep.

Make sure you know the sleep doc knows exactly what anti-depressant you are taking and what the dosage is. Make sure the psychiatrist knows that you've been recently diagnosed with sleep apnea and that you have started CPAP therapy and that you've been switched to bilevel because of adjustment problems. Make sure both docs know what sleeping pills have been prescribed, the dosage, and the instructions on how to take them. Make sure both doctors send reports to the other doctor as well as your primary care physician. Tell both doctors you are concerned about the fact that you don't seem to be sleeping much and that the depression/daytime functioning is not what it should be. In other words, be honest about how hopeless you feel about your sleep and overall quality of life right now. And then listen---really listen---to anything they say about how to break out of the feedback loop that you are trapped in.

You also need to verify with the doc that prescribed the sleeping pill the instructions for using it---how often should you take it (every night or only "as needed") and when you should take it with respect to bedtime. If it has really become ineffective for multiple nights (not just one bad one), that needs to be reported as well.

And finally I think you do need a referral to a therapist who can do some CBT for the insomnia, but maybe also for some anxiety issues as well. It's important to understand that CBT is not a replacement for needed drug therapy. Rather think of it as a tool that can be used to increase the effectiveness of the drug therapy. Your insomnia may need both sleeping pills and CBT-I to get your sleep to improve to where you are not feeling crappy all the time. Likewise, if you can learn to control certain behaviors that feed the anxiety that may also help.
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:47 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:56 am
And whatever daytime symptoms led to you getting the sleep test? They too would have gotten worse the longer your apnea was left untreated. There are folks here who look back on the daytime fatigue and exhaustion that they suffered from for decades and wish that they'd had a sleep test done much, much sooner than they finally decided to get one done.
It has been a suspicion that I've had it for a long time. I think I've actually had it since high school. I am a very heavy snorer and I was getting up 4-5 times a night to pee. But over the last year, I've had worsening brain fog/derealization symptoms. What finally led to getting the test was I started waking up with a pain and tightness in my throat. But as far as the brain fog goes, I don't feel better. Though the throat tightness has mostly gone away.
As for the sleep schedule: As hard as it is, your body will consolidate its sleep cycles a lot better if you go ahead and establish a wake-up time that is consistent across all 7 days of the week. Yes, it's a bitch to have to get out of bed on a day off work when you don't feel like it. But one thing you can do to make it less onerous is to reward yourself by doing something that you really, really enjoy and don't have time for during the work week when you get up on those days off at the same time you get up during your work week.
I will do my best. I can't promise it won't be rocky at first.
As for doing your best to quit dreading bedtime and worrying about your bad sleep during the daytime: You don't want to get trapped in another bad feedback loop of self-fulfilling prophecies: The worse you expect your sleep to be, the more likely your body is to accommodate those expectations by not sleeping well. People with decent sleep seldom spend anytime worrying about their sleep. People with really bad insomnia often spend huge chunks of time worrying about their sleep, both in bed when they are trying to sleep and when out of bed during the day. All that worrying can make it even harder for the brain and body to actually get some decent sleep.
But how do I control the worrying? Just preoccupying myself? It's hard when I feel so crappy during the day.
I've also taken the time to go back and re-read this whole (19 page) thread. You also are dealing with significant depression issues and issues connected to medication needed to control the depression as well as issues tied to the necessary change in your medication. And you've been dealing with a significant spike in anxiety related to worrying about the quality of your sleep. You've also tried sleeping medication, but it's not clear what sleeping pill(s) have been prescribed and how you have been taking the sleeping pills, but you have complained that they "stopped working" after a few days at least once.
You really did not have to do that but thank you. I feel spoiled that you're being this helpful. I have been prescribed Trazadone(which I can take daily if I want to), Clonazepam(I'm only supposed to take this one if it gets really bad because benzos can become addictive), Doxepin(I took this one twice and the hangover was so bad that I threw the whole bottle away), Seroquel(I took this one once and it also had a bad hangover but I still have the pills) and he said we can try Mirtazapine. All of these pills do cause daytime drowsiness so I was hoping to start sleeping without them but I'm considering a Trazadone tonight since it's been the one that has worked most consistently. I just wish my sleep could reset on its own. I've also tried Magnesium supplements but they seem to do nothing.

Also, when it comes to getting my sleep doctor and psychiatrist to work together, it's really hard. My psychiatrist is very responsive and my sleep doc is not. I do wonder if I need to start looking at pills for anxiety in addition to the ones for depression.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by robysue1 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:27 am

Iancdub88 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:47 pm
robysue1 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:56 am
As for the sleep schedule: As hard as it is, your body will consolidate its sleep cycles a lot better if you go ahead and establish a wake-up time that is consistent across all 7 days of the week. Yes, it's a bitch to have to get out of bed on a day off work when you don't feel like it. But one thing you can do to make it less onerous is to reward yourself by doing something that you really, really enjoy and don't have time for during the work week when you get up on those days off at the same time you get up during your work week.
I will do my best. I can't promise it won't be rocky at first
It's tough. It can help to make sure your partner is on board with kicking you out of bed on the weekends, at least at the start. Because the dirty little secret about treating insomnia through CBT-I is that a consistent wake up time is far more important than a consistent bedtime.
As for doing your best to quit dreading bedtime and worrying about your bad sleep during the daytime: You don't want to get trapped in another bad feedback loop of self-fulfilling prophecies: The worse you expect your sleep to be, the more likely your body is to accommodate those expectations by not sleeping well. People with decent sleep seldom spend anytime worrying about their sleep. People with really bad insomnia often spend huge chunks of time worrying about their sleep, both in bed when they are trying to sleep and when out of bed during the day. All that worrying can make it even harder for the brain and body to actually get some decent sleep.
But how do I control the worrying? Just preoccupying myself? It's hard when I feel so crappy during the day.
If you can't distract yourself from the worrying, then you need to talk to the psychiatrist about this. The worrying is most likely a symptom of the anxiety you are feeling about your sleep. Again, working with a cognitive behavior therapist in addition to your psychiatrist may be useful. The idea in CBT is to teach yourself an alternate behavior when you find yourself starting to worry over something that you have little or no control over at time you start the worrying.

So it can start with trying to preoccupy yourself with something that gets your mind off the thing that you are worrying about. With CBT you can be taught what kinds of activities might work for preoccupying yourself, but you'll also be taught about "patterns of thought"---both positive and negative ones, with a goal of teaching you how to replace the negative patterns of thought with more positive ones. As a potentially silly sounding example, one short term achievable goal might be to try to replace "I think tonight's going to be a really rough night. I wonder what I could possibly do to help insure I get some sleep" with "I hope tonight is better than last night. Maybe if I spend some time doing X, Y, or Z today instead of focusing on my sleep so much I'll sleep better"---where X, Y, and Z are simple things that don't require a whole lot of (physical) energy but are things you really enjoy. Perhaps reading a favorite book. Or doing a crossword. Or playing with the kids (if you have some) or repotting that plant you've been meaning to do for weeks or months. The point is it doesn't need to be some kind of major project---just something you enjoy doing that will occupy your brain for enough time to get it to think about something other than the miserable quality of your sleep and how crappy you feel right now.
I have been prescribed Trazadone(which I can take daily if I want to), Clonazepam(I'm only supposed to take this one if it gets really bad because benzos can become addictive), Doxepin(I took this one twice and the hangover was so bad that I threw the whole bottle away), Seroquel(I took this one once and it also had a bad hangover but I still have the pills) and he said we can try Mirtazapine. All of these pills do cause daytime drowsiness so I was hoping to start sleeping without them but I'm considering a Trazadone tonight since it's been the one that has worked most consistently.
You might ask about Belsomra (generic name suvorexant). All the medications you've mentioned work by "turning up drowsy". Belsomra works by "turning down wake". I had real problems with taking Ambien and Sonata when I needed sleeping pills because even at half doses, they would often leave me groggy during the daytime. At the time, Belsomra was not yet on the market, but my then sleep doc was quite hopeful that when Belsomra came on the market it might do me some real good. When it came on the market, it was a godsend for me: I could take Belsomra every night (if I needed to) without feeling groggy during the day. And during the pandemic when it was impossible for me to get to the sleep doc for a new script when my script ran out? I was surprised that I had absolutely no problems at all weaning myself cold turkey from the Belsomra---by that point my brain had finally learned how to get to sleep and stay asleep good enough for me to feel mostly rested most of the time when I got up.
I just wish my sleep could reset on its own.
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Everyone with bad sleep wishes their sleep could reset on its own. Have you found a copy of Sound Sleep, Sound MInd yet? I recommended that you try to find a copy of it several pages back. I think reading through it would help you understand how all the worrying you are doing about your sleep is making it harder for your body and brain to just relax and stay (mostly) asleep during the night.
Also, when it comes to getting my sleep doctor and psychiatrist to work together, it's really hard. My psychiatrist is very responsive and my sleep doc is not. I do wonder if I need to start looking at pills for anxiety in addition to the ones for depression.
Work with the doc who is listening, but make sure they communicate with the other one. Talk to the psychiatrist about your current insomnia problems as well as the anxiety. Also talk about whether the depression meds might be increasing the brain fog during the daytime.
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Iancdub88
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:05 am

All great stuff here, robysue1. Thank you. Just a couple of questions:

How consistent of a wake up time are we talking? The exact same time everyday or is there any leeway? For instance, I have an early work day on Tuesdays where I have to get up at 6:30 but I don't have to be up till 7 the rest of the week. Would that throw things off?

I have not found that book yet but I did forget. Thanks for the reminder.

Last night was better. I'm having longer stretches without arousals but some of my breaths look weird. So these jagged spots in between breaths mean anything?
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by robysue1 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:48 pm

Iancdub88 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 10:05 am
All great stuff here, robysue1. Thank you. Just a couple of questions:

How consistent of a wake up time are we talking? The exact same time everyday or is there any leeway? For instance, I have an early work day on Tuesdays where I have to get up at 6:30 but I don't have to be up till 7 the rest of the week. Would that throw things off?
The more consistent you can be the better.

Ordinarily I would say that given that work schedule that you try a wake up time of 7:00 AM on every day excep for Tuesday and get up at 6:30 on Tuesday.

But if part of your problem is you wake up too early and can't get back to sleep, you need to factor that in as well. So remind me since I'm helping a couple of people right now with insomnia problems: Are you waking up around 5:00 or 5:30 most days and finding yourself unable to get back to sleep? Or are you sleeping until 6:30 or 7:00 pretty consistently in the sense that you are not waking up extra early and lying in bed waiting until it's "time to get up" based on the clock?
Last night was better. I'm having longer stretches without arousals but some of my breaths look weird. So these jagged spots in between breaths mean anything?
I think those don't really mean anything: The inspiration part of your flow rate is good and that indicates your airway is not compromised.

In other words, don't try to micro-analyze ever single bump/squiggle in your flow rate curve hoping to find an answer for why you are dealing with sleep maintenance insomnia problems.
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:55 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:48 pm
But if part of your problem is you wake up too early and can't get back to sleep, you need to factor that in as well. So remind me since I'm helping a couple of people right now with insomnia problems: Are you waking up around 5:00 or 5:30 most days and finding yourself unable to get back to sleep? Or are you sleeping until 6:30 or 7:00 pretty consistently in the sense that you are not waking up extra early and lying in bed waiting until it's "time to get up" based on the clock?
At this point, I can sleep till 6:30 or 7:00 usually. When I was first starting therapy, I couldn't sleep past 5:00 or so.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by robysue1 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:08 pm

Iancdub88 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:55 pm
robysue1 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:48 pm
But if part of your problem is you wake up too early and can't get back to sleep, you need to factor that in as well. So remind me since I'm helping a couple of people right now with insomnia problems: Are you waking up around 5:00 or 5:30 most days and finding yourself unable to get back to sleep? Or are you sleeping until 6:30 or 7:00 pretty consistently in the sense that you are not waking up extra early and lying in bed waiting until it's "time to get up" based on the clock?
At this point, I can sleep till 6:30 or 7:00 usually. When I was first starting therapy, I couldn't sleep past 5:00 or so.
Then use 6:30 (Tuesday)/7:00 (rest of week) as your "wake up" time with the following provisos:

1) If you wake up between 5:00 and 6:00 and you can't get back to sleep within 10 minutes, get out of bed and start your day.

2) If you wake up after 6:00 or 6:15 AM, just get out of bed instead of lying there trying to get a few more minutes of (not very good) sleep.

The idea is that you do not want to be lying in bed for extended periods of time while not sleeping.
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:14 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:08 pm
Iancdub88 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:55 pm
robysue1 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:48 pm
But if part of your problem is you wake up too early and can't get back to sleep, you need to factor that in as well. So remind me since I'm helping a couple of people right now with insomnia problems: Are you waking up around 5:00 or 5:30 most days and finding yourself unable to get back to sleep? Or are you sleeping until 6:30 or 7:00 pretty consistently in the sense that you are not waking up extra early and lying in bed waiting until it's "time to get up" based on the clock?
At this point, I can sleep till 6:30 or 7:00 usually. When I was first starting therapy, I couldn't sleep past 5:00 or so.
Then use 6:30 (Tuesday)/7:00 (rest of week) as your "wake up" time with the following provisos:

1) If you wake up between 5:00 and 6:00 and you can't get back to sleep within 10 minutes, get out of bed and start your day.

2) If you wake up after 6:00 or 6:15 AM, just get out of bed instead of lying there trying to get a few more minutes of (not very good) sleep.

The idea is that you do not want to be lying in bed for extended periods of time while not sleeping.
Sounds like a plan. I also asked my psychiatrist about Suvorexant and it is not covered by my health insurance so I would have to get prior authorization and even after that it's over $200 a month. I don't feel that's worth it at this point. I took a quarter of a Trazodone pill last night and the hangover effects do seem to be less today.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by lynninnj » Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:20 pm

Iancdub88 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:47 pm

But how do I control the worrying? Just preoccupying myself? It's hard when I feel so crappy during the day.

https://youtu.be/aAhA7KfbJgg?si=pcIVDfZbV1Sr2fvN

(Not trying to be glib, just trying to lighten things.)

After my mom passed I had some ptsd type stuff going on around bedtime. Shortly after she passed, Joni Mitchell was honored at Kennedy Center and I heard the song "Both Sides Now". I listened to it a lot more and decided if i woke, stressed, I would start singing that to myself. It helped. Maybe you need something to distract yourself like that and see if it helps when you start obsessing after waking?

Sweet dreams (I actually prefer this version): https://youtu.be/B4ethFJZXiA?si=leiQVm_6R_RUyp-j

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:48 pm

lynninnj wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:20 pm
Iancdub88 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:47 pm

But how do I control the worrying? Just preoccupying myself? It's hard when I feel so crappy during the day.

https://youtu.be/aAhA7KfbJgg?si=pcIVDfZbV1Sr2fvN

(Not trying to be glib, just trying to lighten things.)

After my mom passed I had some ptsd type stuff going on around bedtime. Shortly after she passed, Joni Mitchell was honored at Kennedy Center and I heard the song "Both Sides Now". I listened to it a lot more and decided if i woke, stressed, I would start singing that to myself. It helped. Maybe you need something to distract yourself like that and see if it helps when you start obsessing after waking?

Sweet dreams (I actually prefer this version): https://youtu.be/B4ethFJZXiA?si=leiQVm_6R_RUyp-j
LOL, Bob Newhart was so great.

And yes, thank you, that's a beautiful song. I need to find a good distraction.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:03 am

I have had two good nights in a row. I'm finding that the BIPAP is much more comfortable and I'm waking up less. Yesterday, anytime I started dwelling on sleep, I successfully found things to distract myself with. Exercise, video games and reading to be exact. I am cautiously optimistic.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by robysue1 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:22 am

Iancdub88 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:03 am
I have had two good nights in a row. I'm finding that the BIPAP is much more comfortable and I'm waking up less. Yesterday, anytime I started dwelling on sleep, I successfully found things to distract myself with. Exercise, video games and reading to be exact. I am cautiously optimistic.
Good! I'm glad to hear you have found some things to successfully distract yourself away from the worrying about your sleep. Keep up the good work.

Now in addition to being cautiously optimistic overall, remember that when (not if) the next bad night occurs that it is just a temporary set back. We all have some bad nights. The long term goal is to have lots of good nights between those bad nights. The short term goal is to focus on the positive and not get worked up and worried about the negative.
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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 9:56 am

robysue1 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:22 am
Now in addition to being cautiously optimistic overall, remember that when (not if) the next bad night occurs that it is just a temporary set back. We all have some bad nights. The long term goal is to have lots of good nights between those bad nights. The short term goal is to focus on the positive and not get worked up and worried about the negative.
This is so true and really important for me to remember. No one sleeps perfectly and everyone has bad nights. I need to remember it's not the end of the world if I have a bad night and stop myself from spiraling.

I had another good night. I don't recall many, if any, arousals between about 9:30 and 5:30. My chart still looks a little spiky but I see that quite a few of those are just position changes. I still am getting tired between 3 and 4pm and that lasts till bedtime but it's much less than it was. Overall, I think things are getting more manageable.

https://sleephq.com/public/aee9ff72-bd7 ... 2b9f143326

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Fri Sep 20, 2024 3:55 pm

My doctor tried to get Belsomra approved but the insurance wants me to try Dayvigo first. I'll see how it goes tonight.

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Re: Last Night Was First Night

Post by Iancdub88 » Sun Sep 22, 2024 9:59 am

I want to seriously ask how dangerous it would be to stop PAP therapy for now and seek out other options?