Questions about my new ASV machine

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by -SWS » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:09 pm

tomma wrote: You'd think after having a study done, with that type of machine, they'd at least get close.
Old64mb gave you sound advice about not rushing through trials at any new setting(s). And when you think about it, the more variability one presents in nightly AHI, the more important that advice becomes. But high night-to-night variability also makes it hard for a single-night PSG to yield spot-on ASV settings.

A comment about pesky hypopneas... Obstructive hypopneas can be tackled with EPAP or PS, whereas central hypopneas should be tackled with PS. PSG studies often don't/can't differentiate obstructive hypopneas from central hypopneas. But PS increases usually work for either hypopnea type. That's mainly why titration protocols employ PS increases for undifferentiated hypopneas. A few CompSAS patients tend to present more central instability to fixed BiLevel compared to fixed CPAP. Those patients in particular theoretically fare better tackling their entire obstructive component---hypopneas and all---using EPAP rather than PS. Additionally, those patients are the ones who tend to fare better setting PS Min to 0cm, thus running their ASV machine with CPAP as base modality. Most CompSAS patients, however, seem to fare better setting PS Min to 3cm or higher, hence running their ASV machine with BiLevel as base modality. Both base-modality scenarios allow for timely and proportionate PS increases to address central undershoot---using the PS Min through PS Max range.

Good luck.

tomma
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:59 am

I started over more or less from scratch last night, with the intent of using the 3x3 grid that -SWS posted in another thread, my settings last night were EPAPmin/max 14, and a PSmin of 4. I'm happy, actually very happy, to report that I had an AHI of 3.7!! Almost all of those pain in the #@! hypops were gone! Now, granted it's only 1 night, but at this point I'll take anything I can get. I think I'll stick with these settings for a week or so and see what shakes out.

I do have a question though. As I was trying to fall asleep I kept being distracted by the way the machine was behaving. I would take in a breath, and then right as I start to exhale, it's like the rug gets pulled out from under your feet. Hard to explain, but kind of like, a nice deep breath, and then bam, the machine kind of clicks, there's no pressure, and you fall off a cliff. I tried for 20 minutes or so to get used to it, thinking it was just the way these ASV machines work and I had to deal with it. But then it occurred to me, I wonder if it's BiFlex. I got up and changed the BiFlex setting from 2 to 1, turned the machine back on, and almost instantly fell asleep.

So....my question is, can BiFlex affect therapy, in other words could that have contributed to my lower AHI last night?

And, just out of curiosity, why would anyone even need/want to use it with a Bipap? Seems like you wouldn't need to.

Thnaks

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-SWS
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by -SWS » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:52 am

tomma wrote: So....my question is, can BiFlex affect therapy, in other words could that have contributed to my lower AHI last night?
BiFlex is not compatible with everyone's breathing nuances or subjective preference. So yes, decreasing BiFlex might have helped lower your AHI IMO.
tomma wrote: And, just out of curiosity, why would anyone even need/want to use it with a Bipap? Seems like you wouldn't need to.
Yet BiFlex feels great to many other users. Both comfort and respiratory-pattern compatibility are individual. What works well for one xPAP user may not work well for another.

Congratulations on a good AHI night. Keep pluggin'!

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JohnBFisher
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by JohnBFisher » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:19 pm

Just a couple general comments. ..

As -SWS notes, Bi-Flex does not work for everyone. I've seen some people with severe problems due to Bi-Flex and others who have severe problems with Bi-Flex. Go figure. It's an individual thing and you will need to try to see what works for you.

Second, it takes time for your body to adjust to ASV therapy. It takes more time than the other therapies. Part of the therapy is probably not intentional, but I've seen this pattern often enough to feel safe to say it occurs. From my own experience and that of many other members on this forum, it takes time to adjust. And as you adjust, your body seems to be trained to breathe in a regular manner, which improves your AHI score. Typically, it takes two to three months to totally settle into using ASV therapy. So, I would highly recommend that you stay with your current settings, since they seem effective, and wait for another couple months before making any further changes.

Hope that helps.

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old64mb
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by old64mb » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:33 pm

tomma wrote:So....my question is, can BiFlex affect therapy, in other words could that have contributed to my lower AHI last night?
Yes, as -SWS and John Fisher mentioned, it's one possibility. I'm in the camp that if you have an effective Bilevel setup that you really shouldn't need Biflex since EPAP being set properly should provide sufficient relief, especially when you can vary the EPAP on a machine like the ASV Advanced. (The first generation didn't allow EPAP variability.) However, some people do report better results, so....

The other possibility based on what you mentioned is that may be the backup rate or the Ti kicking in during transitions. Hard to tell, but keep at your settings for a week since they're now in the effective therapy range and then we can take another look.

Glad to hear you got sub-5. The good part is just beginning.

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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:34 am

Well, here we are 2 weeks or so later, and I'm happy to report things are looking much, much better.

I've been using these settings for the last 2 weeks:

EPAP min/max 14
PSmin 4.5
PSmax 10
BPM Auto
Biflex 1

My AHI is averaging in the 2-3 range, even had 1 day where it was 1.5. I have a had a few days where the numbers weren't so great too, last night for example was a little over 6. For the most part things are looking good though. The OA's and CA's are just about completely gone, pretty much the only thing left right now is the central hypopneas. I've tried raising the PSmin to 5, but it didn't make any difference and it was kind of uncomfortable so I backed it back down to 4.5.

Is there anything else I can try to get rid of them?

Thanks

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StillAnotherGuess
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by StillAnotherGuess » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:56 am

tomma wrote: EPAP min/max 14
PSmin 4.5
PSmax 10
BPM Auto
Biflex 1

the only thing left right now is the central hypopneas.
Is there anything else I can try to get rid of them?
Disable Biflex.

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old64mb
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by old64mb » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:52 pm

If you can post graphs of a couple of the not-so-great nights as well as the good nights that'd help determine what to do next.

tomma
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:20 pm

old64mb wrote:If you can post graphs of a couple of the not-so-great nights as well as the good nights that'd help determine what to do next.
Here's a night from around a week ago, this is pretty representative of what I've been getting.


Image

Here's last night's graph. The overall AHI isn't bad, but I'd really like to see what I can do to bring down the number of hypopneas.

Image

Thanks!

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old64mb
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by old64mb » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:15 pm

I'd say probably the next step is to switch backup rate from auto to 10 BPM. It may make falling asleep a little more difficult, but auto backup rate isn't really ideal for longer term use.

After that a PS of 5 or even 5.5 (if you could tolerate it) might be worth thinking about. The more important question is how are you feeling?

tomma
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:35 pm

old64mb wrote:I'd say probably the next step is to switch backup rate from auto to 10 BPM. It may make falling asleep a little more difficult, but auto backup rate isn't really ideal for longer term use.

After that a PS of 5 or even 5.5 (if you could tolerate it) might be worth thinking about. The more important question is how are you feeling?
I feel pretty good, my only real complaint right now is that I'm still pretty sleepy during the day. Not near as much as before starting all this, but still there. Thanks for the ideas, I may try the BPM=10 tonight.

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tomma
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:56 pm

I tried BPM = 10 a couple nights ago but just couldn't seem to get used to it so I switched it back to auto and tried moving PSmin up to 5 instead. Tried that for a couple nights but there was no change, actually there may have been a change for the worse. AHI is higher than normal and had more OA's and CA's than I've had in a while.

Sounds like I'm going to have to man up and give the bpm=10 another try.

One question though. Looking back over the last few weeks I see my average BPM is right around 10, what does setting bpm to 10 actually accomplish? Should I setting it to 11, or more?

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-SWS
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by -SWS » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:16 pm

tomma wrote: One question though. Looking back over the last few weeks I see my average BPM is right around 10, what does setting bpm to 10 actually accomplish? Should I setting it to 11, or more?
BPM is a backup rate. Generally BPM should be set to 2 or 3 LESS than your spontaneous rate.

Also, if higher PSmin induces a greater AHI, then consider that you might require a PSmin lower than 4.

old64mb
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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by old64mb » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:16 pm

tomma wrote:One question though. Looking back over the last few weeks I see my average BPM is right around 10, what does setting bpm to 10 actually accomplish? Should I setting it to 11, or more?
Backup rate is part and parcel of how the ASV deals with central apneas. It provides pressure increases independent of those that the machine does when it determines there's an obstruction in your airway. It does so by the setting determining how long it gives you to breathe naturally before a pressure pulse comes on.

As -SWS mentioned, your backup rate should be a notch below what your actual rate turns out to be, because the goal is to have it kick in if your natural breathing rate slows down due to centrals but not interfere with your breathing otherwise.

When you posted your graphs, it looked like you averaged around 11 BPM, so I suggested 10. If you average around 10, it should be lower than that. I'd suggest 9 to start, and if you're still getting good results and/or 9 isn't comfortable, possibly even 8.

I'd try that before messing around with PSMin if your current 4.5 setting has been more or less effective.

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Re: Questions about my new ASV machine

Post by tomma » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:03 am

Thanks guys.

I tried lowering my PS min last night, from 5 to 4, with disastrous results. AHI higher than it has been in weeks, and a lot of events. So, I've tried 4, 4.5 and 5. 4.5 is the one that seems to give me the best, most consistent results.

I think I have PS where it needs to be, so tonight I'm going to try a backup rate of 8 or 9 instead of auto and see what that gets me, that is if I can stay with it and fall asleep.

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