How to get rid of centrals

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Ron AKA
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Ron AKA » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:22 pm

DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm
So I need more pressure? How am I supposed to get rid of these!!
Pressure does not do anything for CA's because the airway is not blocked. You machine will not attempt to increase pressure to address them for that reason. That daily chart you posted shows no OA's. What you could do is reduce pressure until you start to see OA's. It might reduce some of the CA's. This said your CA count is not that high. You may have to learn to live with it. It is possible a more sophisticated BiPAP machine could help, but I suspect nobody is going to prescribe one for you with such a low CA count.

You may want to use the Events tab, double click on the CA line, and then click on each CA event to look at the detail of each one. Based on whether or not you are awake or sleeping, and what the trace looks like before it happens, it may be a real or not real CA event. Have a look at the video below for some tips on how to tell real ones from false flagged one. Unfotunately you have to listen/watch quite a bit of irrelevant stuff to see the real stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my7mH3tyAvs

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by DankShroud » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Ron AKA wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:22 pm
DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm
So I need more pressure? How am I supposed to get rid of these!!
Pressure does not do anything for CA's because the airway is not blocked. You machine will not attempt to increase pressure to address them for that reason. That daily chart you posted shows no OA's. What you could do is reduce pressure until you start to see OA's. It might reduce some of the CA's. This said your CA count is not that high. You may have to learn to live with it. It is possible a more sophisticated BiPAP machine could help, but I suspect nobody is going to prescribe one for you with such a low CA count.

You may want to use the Events tab, double click on the CA line, and then click on each CA event to look at the detail of each one. Based on whether or not you are awake or sleeping, and what the trace looks like before it happens, it may be a real or not real CA event. Have a look at the video below for some tips on how to tell real ones from false flagged one. Unfotunately you have to listen/watch quite a bit of irrelevant stuff to see the real stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my7mH3tyAvs
But I'm having obstructive events where the CPAP doesn't identify the obstructive apnea and only detects the following sleep/wake/junk central apnea.

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Pugsy
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Pugsy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:39 pm

DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm
So I need more pressure? How am I supposed to get rid of these!!
These what? The unflagged probable OA?
or the SWJ central?

Are you expecting that if you have zero events of any kind that your sleep will be perfect and you will feel like superman?

How come so many breaks in therapy last night April 9th?
The first group of centrals during that short segment of use at 19:00....I am betting you never went to sleep and they are all SWJ.
Then you have a gap in use until approx 21:00 and again a short period of use with some central clustering and again you probably weren't asleep....then another gap in usage until 22:00...then solid use until roughly 8:00 AM...then another gap and about 90 minutes of usage.
Why so many gaps and during the time from 22:00 until 8 AM...do you remember waking often but you elected to continue using the machine?

Did you know that the best and most perfect AHI in the world doesn't mean squat if your sleep is crappy for some other reason?

My personal opinion...you are likely using way more pressure minimum than is needed for the obstructive stuff and you are worrying about centrals that most likely aren't real and you need to take a hard look at more than just the AHI numbers.
I suspect crappy sleep in general..now what is causing the crappy sleep quality and arousals... I don't know but I think that you are using an atomic bomb to try to totally eradicate everything in hopes that's the miracle needed so you feel like superman but it's not happening because that's just what life gives us sometimes. Not all our problems are related to sleep apnea and they can't be fixed by the machine if those problems are related to something else. I can understand trying and wanting but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Been there and done that myself.

Even if ever single one of your flagged centrals were real (which I seriously doubt anyway) there's not enough of them for a doctor to want to do anything about except maybe watch them.
Your obstructive events...the OAs and hyponeas...the count is so low that they aren't going to alarm a doctor.

Now what might be happening is you are having a lot of those borderline non flagged events and those might be causing sleep disturbances and arousals, etc.
Here's what I suggest before yielding to the knee jerk reaction of "more pressure"...
Go into SleepyHead and into Preferences and make some user flagged changes so that SH will flag those flow reductions that the machine isn't flagging for whatever reason.
It's Preferences/ CPAP tab and lower left corner turn on custom event flagging.
Make something like 30% and maybe 5 seconds and see what happens. You will most likely have to do a rebuild of the data...and that's found under Data on the top menu.

Then at that time evaluate what the pressure was doing when/if you see a lot of those non flagged events that otherwise you wouldn't know about.

The centrals...you are going to have to ignore them for the time being. I don't think that pressure is causing them and we can't fix them with this machine anyway. I think that most likely they are a symptom of crappy sleep and not the cause of the crappy sleep.
Now figuring out the cause of the crappy sleep....can be really difficult. It may or may not be related to airway collapse.

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by DankShroud » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:55 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:39 pm
DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm
So I need more pressure? How am I supposed to get rid of these!!
These what? The unflagged probable OA?
or the SWJ central?

Are you expecting that if you have zero events of any kind that your sleep will be perfect and you will feel like superman?

How come so many breaks in therapy last night April 9th?
The first group of centrals during that short segment of use at 19:00....I am betting you never went to sleep and they are all SWJ.
Then you have a gap in use until approx 21:00 and again a short period of use with some central clustering and again you probably weren't asleep....then another gap in usage until 22:00...then solid use until roughly 8:00 AM...then another gap and about 90 minutes of usage.
Why so many gaps and during the time from 22:00 until 8 AM...do you remember waking often but you elected to continue using the machine?

Did you know that the best and most perfect AHI in the world doesn't mean squat if your sleep is crappy for some other reason?

My personal opinion...you are likely using way more pressure minimum than is needed for the obstructive stuff and you are worrying about centrals that most likely aren't real and you need to take a hard look at more than just the AHI numbers.
I suspect crappy sleep in general..now what is causing the crappy sleep quality and arousals... I don't know but I think that you are using an atomic bomb to try to totally eradicate everything in hopes that's the miracle needed so you feel like superman but it's not happening because that's just what life gives us sometimes. Not all our problems are related to sleep apnea and they can't be fixed by the machine if those problems are related to something else. I can understand trying and wanting but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Been there and done that myself.

Even if ever single one of your flagged centrals were real (which I seriously doubt anyway) there's not enough of them for a doctor to want to do anything about except maybe watch them.
Your obstructive events...the OAs and hyponeas...the count is so low that they aren't going to alarm a doctor.

Now what might be happening is you are having a lot of those borderline non flagged events and those might be causing sleep disturbances and arousals, etc.
Here's what I suggest before yielding to the knee jerk reaction of "more pressure"...
Go into SleepyHead and into Preferences and make some user flagged changes so that SH will flag those flow reductions that the machine isn't flagging for whatever reason.
It's Preferences/ CPAP tab and lower left corner turn on custom event flagging.
Make something like 30% and maybe 5 seconds and see what happens. You will most likely have to do a rebuild of the data...and that's found under Data on the top menu.

Then at that time evaluate what the pressure was doing when/if you see a lot of those non flagged events that otherwise you wouldn't know about.

The centrals...you are going to have to ignore them for the time being. I don't think that pressure is causing them and we can't fix them with this machine anyway. I think that most likely they are a symptom of crappy sleep and not the cause of the crappy sleep.
Now figuring out the cause of the crappy sleep....can be really difficult. It may or may not be related to airway collapse.
Screenshot (13).png
Screenshot (13).png (111.92 KiB) Viewed 432 times
I went ahead and made those custom flagging parameters. The machine made no pressure changed in response to these events. But what can I do about them?

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Pugsy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:06 pm

DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:55 pm
I went ahead and made those custom flagging parameters. The machine made no pressure changed in response to these events. But what can I do about them?
Don't know because you didn't answer my other questions so I have no history to help me try to help you.
Don't know because I don't know if the machine didn't do anything because it didn't think you were asleep or maybe you didn't have the other stuff to go along with the flow reductions that cause the auto algorithm to kick in more pressure.
The auto adjusting algorithm is complex and there's more to causing it to change pressures than just a change in flow rate.

Are you off all meds now? If not, what are you taking?
And please go back and answer the other questions about your sleep that I asked.
It may not seem important to you but it's real important to me or else I wouldn't bother typing/asking them.

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palerider
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by palerider » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:49 pm
Now why the non flagged air flow reduction happened or why it wasn't flagged. Dunno....unless maybe it was just short of 10 seconds in duration. I am thinking probably an OA that didn't quite meet the 10 second criteria because the machine didn't use any FOT on it.
Without having the mask pressure trace, I'm not as sure as I would be, but it looks like that was a 9 second obstructive.

You can see the FOT as a fuzzyness during the second half or so of it, and if there was a mask pressure trace, you should be able to see more fuzzyness on the mask pressure towards the end (more fuzzy on mask pressure = obstructive, which results in less fuzzy on the flow). After that, I see arousal, and probably some kind of movement, turning over, settling, something like that.

At least, that's my guess.

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by DankShroud » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:15 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:06 pm
DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:55 pm
I went ahead and made those custom flagging parameters. The machine made no pressure changed in response to these events. But what can I do about them?
Don't know because you didn't answer my other questions so I have no history to help me try to help you.
Don't know because I don't know if the machine didn't do anything because it didn't think you were asleep or maybe you didn't have the other stuff to go along with the flow reductions that cause the auto algorithm to kick in more pressure.
The auto adjusting algorithm is complex and there's more to causing it to change pressures than just a change in flow rate.

Are you off all meds now? If not, what are you taking?
And please go back and answer the other questions about your sleep that I asked.
It may not seem important to you but it's real important to me or else I wouldn't bother typing/asking them.
The gaps were from me turning in early, laying in bed awake for a few minutes and then getting up and doing something else. The solid stretch of CPAP usage is when I'm really asleep. I'm not on any medications.

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by DankShroud » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:20 pm

palerider wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:14 pm
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:49 pm
Now why the non flagged air flow reduction happened or why it wasn't flagged. Dunno....unless maybe it was just short of 10 seconds in duration. I am thinking probably an OA that didn't quite meet the 10 second criteria because the machine didn't use any FOT on it.
Without having the mask pressure trace, I'm not as sure as I would be, but it looks like that was a 9 second obstructive.

You can see the FOT as a fuzzyness during the second half or so of it, and if there was a mask pressure trace, you should be able to see more fuzzyness on the mask pressure towards the end (more fuzzy on mask pressure = obstructive, which results in less fuzzy on the flow). After that, I see arousal, and probably some kind of movement, turning over, settling, something like that.

At least, that's my guess.

I think I agree with you. How can I treat these unflaggable apneas? I'm not on any medications, if you wanted to know.

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Pugsy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:30 pm

Before you can treat or try to treat anything you have to try to identify it first.

Add mask pressure back into your graphs...omit Flow Limitations..it's not particularly exciting anyway.

Get PaleRider a close up of that 9 second unflagged event with mask pressure showing up under the flow rate graph (I think that's where he likes it).

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palerider
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by palerider » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:30 pm
Before you can treat or try to treat anything you have to try to identify it first.

Add mask pressure back into your graphs...omit Flow Limitations..it's not particularly exciting anyway.

Get PaleRider a close up of that 9 second unflagged event with mask pressure showing up under the flow rate graph (I think that's where he likes it).
The closer they are, the easier I find it to mentally draw a line between the events... and thus see the relationships. ;)

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palerider
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by palerider » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:37 pm

DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:20 pm
palerider wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:14 pm
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:49 pm
Now why the non flagged air flow reduction happened or why it wasn't flagged. Dunno....unless maybe it was just short of 10 seconds in duration. I am thinking probably an OA that didn't quite meet the 10 second criteria because the machine didn't use any FOT on it.
Without having the mask pressure trace, I'm not as sure as I would be, but it looks like that was a 9 second obstructive.

You can see the FOT as a fuzzyness during the second half or so of it, and if there was a mask pressure trace, you should be able to see more fuzzyness on the mask pressure towards the end (more fuzzy on mask pressure = obstructive, which results in less fuzzy on the flow). After that, I see arousal, and probably some kind of movement, turning over, settling, something like that.

At least, that's my guess.

I think I agree with you. How can I treat these unflaggable apneas? I'm not on any medications, if you wanted to know.
Well, the normal answer to hypos and obstructives is 'more pressure'.

You can program custom event flags in sleepyhead to show things that are shorter than the 10 seconds required to 'officially' be an apnea.

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Ron AKA
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Ron AKA » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:44 pm

DankShroud wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 pm
But I'm having obstructive events where the CPAP doesn't identify the obstructive apnea and only detects the following sleep/wake/junk central apnea.
It needs to see the loss of flow for a minimum of 10 seconds.
Apnea.JPG
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DankShroud
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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by DankShroud » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:53 pm

Screenshot (14).png
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Here she is palerider

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Pugsy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:07 pm

Way too tiny mask pressure line.

Needs to be more like this. Make your graphs bigger and quit trying to have so many in one image.
This one isn't zoomed in enough but you can get an idea of the size that is needed of the pressure.

Image

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Re: How to get rid of centrals

Post by Mogy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:16 pm

DankShroud-In my opinion you should do what is necessary to reduce your sleep apnea so you no longer require your machine. Your sleep apnea is mild. If you do the required exercises, in 3 months you probably will not need (or think you need) your machine.
I know this is not a popular opinion here, but are you really ready to use a PAP machine for the rest of your life?
There are studies that show that you can cure yourself of sleep apnea. If you're interested I will go into more detail.
Using weight loss, general exercise, and tongue/throat exercises I managed to get my AHI down to approx 5.
Not using a machine currently.