What about thunderstorms?

westom wrote:

Wulfman... wrote: They can range from $10 - $30. If the lightning does find the outlet, it'll take out the outlet strip first.

Please remember elementary school science. If electricity is incoming to a power strip, then the exact same current is also outgoing. Simultaneously. Same current is on both sides of that protector. Much later, the protector (and maybe other items in that circuit) fail. Failure that promotes myths especially when protection already inside the CPAP protected the CPAP.

How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? To promote a scam, they need you to not ask such embarrassing questions. If a surge is incoming to the power strip and is not outgoing into the CPAP (as you posted), then no electricity (surge) exists.

Sometimes that power strip may even give a surge even more paths to find earth, destructively, via the CPAP and KatyDidAgain. What kind of protection is that? Obscenely profitable. It did what manufacturer specs said it would do.

Or do you know something different? Please post those manufacturer spec numbers that claim that protection.

That's some of the most convoluted, nonsensical gibberish I've read in a long, long time!


Den

Thanks Talon

TalonNYC wrote: It's not a scam, it's a 200 year old fact that Ben Franklin figured out. If electricity cannot find a path to ground through one circuit, it will go through another. Cut the power (with a circuit breaker or fuse) and you FORCE the electricity to find another path.

Works as long as we ignore other facts.

1) Surges are a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary to maintain the same current flow. A 2 cm part that fails means voltage increases to continue flowing current through that part. Worse, the failure creates plasma. An electrical conductor that means AC electricity also flows through (see scary pictures).

Or learn from numbers on any fuse. For example, a 5 amp fuse also says 32 volts or 250 volts. That means a blown fuse continues to conduct if voltage exceeds 32 or 250 volts.

2) Also consider timing numbers. Surges do damage and are done in microseconds. A fuse, circuit breaker, etc takes tens of milliseconds or longer to blow. Another reason why surges are never stopped. And why 100 years of well proven science contradicts your assumptions.

3) Either a protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth. Or no protection exists. Ben Franklin demonstrated this in 1752. Or does your lightning rod somehow stop lightning? Hopefully I need not explain how lightning rods work. Effective ‘whole house’ protection does same. Plug-in protectors do not.

4) Any protectors that will stop or absorb surges is best called a scam. An undersized protector must disconnect its MOVs as fast as possible to avoid a house fire. Sometimes grossly undersized power strips do not disconnect fast enough. Then scary pictures exist including a fire marshal who says why power strips may create fires:
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson ... orfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Four reasons why homeowners earth one ‘whole house’ protector … to even protect power strip protectors. Scary pictures are just another reason why informed homeowners do not waste money on profit center power strips.

Wulfman... wrote: That's some of the most convoluted, nonsensical gibberish I've read in a long, long time!

If it was, then you could explain why. Many who are scammed by the advertising myths will post nasty insults at the messenger. You had two choices. Either explain how electricity can enter a surge protector without an outgoing wire. Or post insults. I expect others will do what you did. Demonstrates why advertising and propaganda are so effective. Many who automatically believe what is said then get angry when reality is posted. Especially when reality comes with numbers.

How does electricity enter on one wire and not leave on some other? It doesn't. So you posted nasty? Stop it.

If you have no facts, then do not post. If you have no manufacture spec numbers to support your beliefs, then you were scammed. That does not justify cheapshots.

Meanwhile learn even from those scary pictures. Another reason why informed homeowners earth one ‘whole house’ protector.

westom wrote:

Wulfman... wrote: That's some of the most convoluted, nonsensical gibberish I've read in a long, long time!

If it was, then you could explain why. Many who are scammed by the advertising myths will post nasty insults at the messenger. You had two choices. Either explain how electricity can enter a surge protector without an outgoing wire.
How does electricity enter on one wire and not leave on some other? It doesn't. So you posted nasty? Stop it.

You're right, it doesn't, but there IS a third wire on surge strips, the ground wire. You'd have to account for a failure to ground before the power could cross a broken circuit.

TalonNYC wrote: You're right, it doesn't, but there IS a third wire on surge strips, the ground wire. You'd have to account for a failure to ground before the power could cross a broken circuit.

Good. That is an example of asking valid technical questions.

Posted repeatedly was a reference to 'less than 10 feet'. Concept is called impedance. An earth ground wire must be low impedance (not low resistance). That means a ground wire must have no sharp bends, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, separated from other non-ground wires, etc. Every requirement violated by a *safety* ground wire from receptacles.

Code is quite blunt about this. Safety ground and earth ground are completely different. Protection is always about a connection short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.

More numbers. Let's assume a power strip attempts to earth a trivial 100 amp surge via a receptacle safety ground. Maybe 50 feet to the breaker box. That ground wire would be maybe 0.1 ohms resistance. And something like 120 ohms impedance. 100 amps times 120 ohm is 12,000 volts. How does that power strip earth 100 amps via a wire that is something less than 12,000 volts? It doesn't.

Impedance is why effective protectors always have a dedicated and short connection to earth. Power strip has no such wire.

Impedance is also why reliable facilities connect protectors distant from electronics. Again, numbers. To make protection effective, your telco connects their protectors up to 50 meters (150 feet) from their switching computer. Wire impedance is why protectors are so close to earth. Wire impedance is why better protectors are also distant from a CPAP.

Another fact. Once that energy is inside the building, then nothing will stop a destructive hunt for earth. Hundreds of thousands of joules must dissipate harmlessly outside the building. Once inside, then nothing will avert a destructive hunt for earth via appliances. An IEEE brochure demonstrated this. A power strip protector on TV one simply gave that surge even more paths to find earth ground. So it earth a surge 8000 volts destructively via a TV in the second room. IEEE even gave a voltage number. The power strip simply earthed a surge 8000 volts through that TV. Because energy was not earthed before entering the building.

What will that power strip earth through? The CPAP? TV? Computer? Anything nearby can become a victim because energy was permitted inside the building.

KatyDidAgain wrote:But what about the humidifier. That is essentially hooked up to you. Does that make lightning coming through the machine more likely to zap you? Forgive my naivety here. Hope that isn't a stupid question.

(Two EE parents and I'm clueless about electricity for the most part. You'd think some of would have rubbed off, right?)

In the 29-year world history of CPAP, no one has been electrocuted by lightning passing through his CPAP.

You aren't going to make Guinness.

NightMonkey wrote: In the 29-year world history of CPAP, no one has been electrocuted by lightning passing through his CPAP.

Which proves no CPAP needs surge protection? Good. Then remove a power strip protector so that it also does not create a house fire. Or ...

NightMonkey wrote:
In the 29-year world history of CPAP, no one has been electrocuted by lightning passing through his CPAP.

You aren't going to make Guinness.

with my luck, never say never!

westom wrote:Four reasons why homeowners earth one ‘whole house’ protector … to even protect power strip protectors. Scary pictures are just another reason why informed homeowners do not waste money on profit center power strips.

First of all, to me it comes through loud and clear you make your living in some fashion by designing, or manufacturing, or selling, or installing, whole house surge protectors, so your comments reflect a significant bias.

There is no question that a path to ground is all important, but in the home there are two such paths, the neutral wire and the safety ground.

Now, there are two issues at play, lightning protection and surge protection. Whole house lightning protection is undoubtedly desirable, but is it enough? I don't think so. Whole house surge protection is not the best. Why? Because most surges in a home are created within the home, not from outside. They are created by such things as the refrigerator compressor starting, or the AC compressor starting, or any number of other inductive loads starting and stopping. A whole house surge protector will not provide individual appliances the same level of protection that individual power strips will from these sorts of surges. Are they typically great enough to worry about? That is open to debate.

You cannot justifiably flat out say individual surge protectors are no good. Neither can you justifiably say whole house protection is the only way to go. The best protection is a combination of both, but whole house protection is not cheap. For most people the most practical and economical solution are individual surge protectors, but will they provide absolute 100% protection? No. But neither will whole house.

When it comes to lightning, and surges, there ain't no such thing as 100% protection at a wallet friendly price.

idamtnboy wrote: First of all, to me it comes through loud and clear you make your living in some fashion by designing, or manufacturing, or selling, or installing, whole house surge protectors, so your comments reflect a significant bias.

Then you are imposing your feelings where no facts support such conclusion. Only feelings also prove why a power strip protector is recommended? That entire post is 100% subjective. No engineering facts. No numbers, No manufacturer specs. We don’t need no stink’in facts to be an expert! Is that how it works?

Second, three wires meet at a bus bar (have you heard this one before?). Neutral, safety ground, and earth ground. Why no knowledge about a third wire required by code and repeatedly defined for protection? Please feel free to learn what wires are inside a breaker box before educating me. Critical to AC electric surge protection is how that third wire routes short, without sharp bends, etc to the only thing that does surge protection: single point earth ground.

Two basic facts you still did not learn. One: a wire to earth ground must be low impedance. Two: all protection is defined only by what absorbs energy. Both facts were noted repeatedly. Why did you somehow forget them?

Third, if compressors and refrigerators are creating surges, then you are replacing dimmer switches and digital clock how many times daily? If appliances are creating surges, then those appliances destroying themselves. Why no damage? As long as claims are subjective, then such damning questions can be ignored. Why do digital clocks and dimmer switches work undamaged for years? Sorry. I have a bad habit of including numbers when I ask damning questions.

Why is a power strip’s joules near zero? Since you ignored numbers, then near zero joules is also 100% protection? Why do fictional surges from compressors and refrigerators not cause damage in the real world? Near zero protectors eliminate fictional surges.

Fourth, so which anomalies are eliminated by a power strip? Which ones cause damage? Longitudinal mode? Transverse mode? Current source? Common mode? Voltage source? Harmonics? Exponential microsecond transient? Power factor? Neutral failure? Impulse? Oscillatory? Metallic mode? I’m really confused. Because every destructive one is eliminated by one ‘whole house’ protector. Which anomaly does that power strip solve? It is not a rhetorical question. Answer it or admit advertising invented a strawman problem.

How do hundreds of joules in a protector make tens or hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear? Please. You claim to be an expert. Tell us. How does all that destructive energy generated by compressors just magically disappear? A little hint. It does not have to. Compressors, et al only generate noise. Near zero energy is made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance..

Where are your numbers? Where is that manufacturer spec number that claims protection from compressor generated surges? When do you define each surge type? Why is your knowledge not reflected in any facility that can never suffer damage? Advertising invents strawman problems. So you cured them?

Well, you make one correct statement:

When it comes to lightning, and surges, there ain't no such thing as 100% protection at a wallet friendly price.

IEEE is asked to put numbers to your claim. From the IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which will, if well designed
> and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9%
> protection. …
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to
> one stroke per 6000 years ...

So yes. A ‘whole house’ protector at only $1 per protected appliance (a wallet friendly price) only does 99.5% protection. Somehow a strip protector does a whopping 0.2% while costing $20 or $150 per protected appliance? Very wallet unfriendly. So why do you recommend it? $1 for 99.7% protection. $25 or $150 for 0.2% protection. Why would anyone recommend a power strip protector? Because subjective legends invented by advertising are somehow honest?

Bottom line: Earth one ‘whole house’ protector to protect a CPAP and all other appliances from every type of surge. As proven by over 100 years experience in every town. Warning. That protection will only be effective for about 1400 years – according to the IEEE.

idamtnboy wrote:First of all, to me it comes through loud and clear you make your living in some fashion by designing, or manufacturing, or selling, or installing, whole house surge protectors, so your comments reflect a significant bias.
...

Which is the reason I haven't responded to him. The mere fact that every one of his posts on this board deal with power just reinforces that. He isn't here because of OSA, clearly.

.

A correction is needed here...

westom wrote:
Or learn from numbers on any fuse. For example, a 5 amp fuse also says 32 volts or 250 volts. That means a blown fuse continues to conduct if voltage exceeds 32 or 250 volts.

Fuses disconnect when a wire melts inside the fuse. The wire is rated in watts. A 5 amp fuse rated for 32 volt service will melt when the load exceeds 160 watts. A 5 amp fuse rated for 250 volts will not melt until the load exceeds 1250 watts. Once the fuse has melted, the circuit is open and will not pass current or voltage, unless it is subjected to the voltage necessary to jump the gap in the wire. Since air is a good dielectric source, the 0.25 inch air gap provided by blowing a 250 volt 5 amp fuse will withstand a voltage potential of about 2000 volts.

In this case, a fuse with a 250 volt 5 amp rating could possibly conduct if the voltage exceeded 2000 volts, but that would continue to melt the wire and you would end up with about an inch of gap. An inch gap is good for around 8000 volts. This is much different than simply saying that if the voltage exceeds 250 volts the fuse will continue to conduct.

HoseCrusher wrote: Fuses disconnect when a wire melts inside the fuse. The wire is rated in watts. A 5 amp fuse rated for 32 volt service will melt when the load exceeds 160 watts. A 5 amp fuse rated for 250 volts will not melt until the load exceeds 1250 watts.

5 amps through a 32 volt fuse create same watts that melt a 250 volt fuse. Only current blows a fuse - not voltage. Same 5 amps and near zero voltage also trips a 32 volt, 250 volt, or 10,000 volt circuit breaker. Voltage is irrelevant when the fuse blows. That fuse has no idea which voltage is driving 5 amps ... until after the fuse blows or circuit breaker trips.

Voltage number only defines if a fuse can interrupt electricity. If its voltage number is too low, a blown fuse continues conducting current. 5 amps from a 12 volt source will trip a 10,000 volt breaker just like 5 amps from a 1000 volt source will. Fuses and circuit breakers don't know what the voltage is. Only know what the current is.

The bottom line fact: nothing will stop a surge. Not a 32 volt fuse or a 10,000 volt circuit breaker. Will that fuse's millimeters gap stop what three miles of sky could not? Obviously not. All fuse and circuit breaker voltage numbers are too low. The gap is not large enough. Voltage will increase as necessary to blow through any fuse that tries to stop a surge.

Either massive energy is connected to earth before entering a building. Or nothing stops a destructive hunt for earth ground via household appliances. Nothing as in no fuse, no circuit breaker, and no two centimeter protector part inside a power strip. A surge will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might try and stop it. Another reason why one 'whole house' protector is earthed to protect everything including power strip protectors, fuses, and a CPAP.