OT: Sugar and lies

[Janknitz]

Adequate education on nutrition in highschool. Proper affordable pre natal education. Simple stuff the rest of the world tries to do.

Sounds good in theory, but what they teach about "good nutrition" is awful in this country. They spout the party line fed to them by big agricultural and Food product manufacturers--how we NEED fortified cereal grains, that fruit and veggies can come in the form of overly sweetened juice, that certain products are "part of a well balanced diet", that saturated fats are evil, etc.

My daughter is learning "nutrition" in her sixth grade health class, and I have to have conversations about how she should spout off conventional wisdom to pass her test while reminding her that we don't believe that drivel and butter on her veggies will NOT cause obesity and heart disease but so-called "heart healthy" margarine might.

So I think having schools teach good nutrition is far more likely to be part of the problem than a solution. I can just see the textbooks provided to the schools for free by the likes of Kellogs, Kraft, and Cargill.

I was listening to the Science Friday podcast interview with Al Gore today, and his description is apt--our democracy has been hacked by the agenda of big business which has infiltrated every corner of the American psyche through our own television sets (e.g. commercials and programs about "healthy balanced" diets full of their products), and we invited them in.

[MaxDarkside]

I think it all comes down to personal choices about what is best for each of us, as individuals. You cannot educate stupid people, it's an act of frustration. Stupid people, billions of them on this planet, will do stupid things. You can help the ignorant, provide them information but don't take choices away, even the "bad" ones because what is "bad" to one person is not to another. For example, McDonald's Quarter Pounder with its, what, 1,500 mg sodium each, might be a bad choice for you, but for millions afflicted with autonomic hypovolemic disorders, eating those might be a healthy helpful choice. They need mass quantities of salt, sometimes as much as their organs can handle. I, on the other hand, avoid sodium due to high blood pressure. To me, a McDonald's Quarter Pounder tastes like poison and I know I will suffer if I eat one, so I don't.

Society deciding things is always based on generalizations painted with a broad brush and while "more often than not" is correct, it is therefore is always wrong in the millions of exceptions by definition. I think we each should make our personal decisions based on our personal situation, as informed as possible. That means watching ads and reading studies and reading web sites with our BS filters on high. We here in this forum know that just taking care of our specific health/life challenges is hard enough. "Solving problems for everyone" just takes our challenges and multiplies them a billion times bigger and harder.

/off philosophical soap box and good night.

[CowFish]

(Thanks to my new internet friend for instructions on how to post that!)

[knightlite]

Big Sugar is going to become the next tobacco ! The government needs to find more revenue, so put a 5 dollar tax on 5 pounds of sugar ! I say this for our kids not us old guys . Everywhere sugar is used as a filler , it is way too cheap. It is very addictive and you were not designed to eat much of it . Its in bread , tomato sauces , pizzas , meat-- you name it . You can't escape it even if you don't eat out. Make it more expensive and it will decline. But its going to be a big fight !
Yes I'm a diabetic but my sin was excessive diet drinks , I thought they wouldn't hurt me , I was wrong ! But that's another topic at a later date , I only drink water now!
Where was the forum on Rome about using lead pipes LOL.

[jnk]

It is the job of all businessmen to convince you to spend your money in a way that makes them money.

To the extent that businessmen influence the information you receive and trust, to that extent the ideas you have are likely to run counter to your long-term well-being.

[WarmBodies]

Yes I'm a diabetic but my sin was excessive diet drinks , I thought they wouldn't hurt me , I was wrong ! But that's another topic at a later date , I only drink water now!
Where was the forum on Rome about using lead pipes LOL.

Two questions.

Does eating too much sugar cause type 2 diabetes?

Do diet drinks cause diabetes? What about saccharin? I drink a lot of decaf iced tea sweetened with Sweet 'n Low.

(I guess that was three questions. )

[WarmBodies]

With the attitudes I see here about how business works, I assume none of you have ever worked in management for a business.

I trust the business people I know more than I trust artists, monks and knitters.

Caveat emptor of course. I don't think you can legislate this need away.

[jnk]

. . . I trust the business people . . .

I am glad to know you have found people in your life to trust. Is there something about their managing a business that has made them more trustworthy than others?

My belief is that although the fellow selling the product may be the most knowledgeable about the product itself, he is rarely the best guy to ask for a balanced opinion on the product's overall benefits and dangers. Even if he wants to answer the questions honestly, basic human nature prevents his being all that successful at choosing his words, uh, neutrally. The pockets have too much control over the tongue and pen.

I don't think the answer is to gag the businessmen. But I also appreciate information sources that try hard not to have their opinions tainted by their own self-interests to the extent that is possible. The availability of multiple voices about a product may irritate the salesmen, but it can still be valuable to the customers.

Not that government sources of information are necessarily any more reliable than business voices. And these days, those two voices tend to sing in chorus and are nearly indistinguishable in most respects anyway.

But hey, that's just my take.

[BlackSpinner]

Does eating too much sugar cause type 2 diabetes?

Do diet drinks cause diabetes? What about saccharin? I drink a lot of decaf iced tea sweetened with Sweet 'n Low.

(I guess that was three questions. )

They are implicated as in people who have type 2 tend to have used more sugar and more diet drinks of all sorts .

[chunkyfrog]

Aside from sugar, there's plenty of sweet stuff around (for diabetics, dentist's kids, etc.)
Saccharin: --I hate the metallic aftertaste. It is cheeeeap, which is why you see it everywhere.
{{If you only see pink packets, you wonder if they ever taste the food--or if they even dare.}}
Blue packet, aspartame; better (is the bad press all true? That was years ago--but still in most sweet drinks.
(I guess that proves it's poison)
The other blue packet, Sweet One (acesulfame-potassium) better, but can't find it here.
--They never got their toe in the door in the US.
Yellow packet, better still, some rumors--no bad effects that I can tell.
Natural stuff: green packet (rebiana-stevia), orange packet (monk fruit-luo han guo) Pricey stuff.
Trying out the monk fruit, still like stevia better. Not getting rid of yellow yet.
Not enough research to commit to just one, so one here, one there,--dilute the hazards
The rainbow of sweet alternatives, I feel like having a sugar free caramel, but too much maltitol makes me waaay "regular"!

[idamtnboy]

The government needs to find more revenue, so put a 5 dollar tax on 5 pounds of sugar !

They could probably realize just as much revenue by dropping sugar price supports. Of course then our sugar would come from the Dominican Republic and we sure don't want that, do we? (We need a sarcasm emoticon!) Sugar cane growers in the south and sugar beet growers in the west wouldn't be able to compete with the price of sugar from foreign countries. So, we have cheap sugar and subsidized growers. Another case of where the primary role of government largesse is to keep people from grumbling.

[WarmBodies]

[quote]Is there something about their managing a business that has made them more trustworthy than others?[quote]

Oh, that answer is easy - right out of Business 101.

There are many things that make business managers more trustworthy.

Maybe the most important is "competition". If you lie and cheat, you will eventually be found out and your customers will choose the competition. Isn't that what we all do? Don't we try to spend our money with honest businesses and expose and shun the dishonest ones. The herd gets thinned and the average becomes more trustworthy.

Another important factor has to do with the owners/managers and the kind of people they hire. Employees who will lie and cheat your customers, will lie and cheat you. You don't want these people on your staff and in your building. Owners/managers very much prefer to hire employees with high ethical standards.

I know our salesmen have told me many times that the worse thing they can do is to sell a product to a customer which is not in the customer's best interest. The customers aren't stupid. They figure it out and then - bye-bye - you lose the business and your competition gets it.

BTW, when you quoted me you left out that I said "caveat emptor". That is our part of the job. If a business lies or cheats you, let them know you are going somewhere else and then do it! Isn't that what you do?????? Help thin the herd!

[WarmBodies]

The government needs to find more revenue, so put a 5 dollar tax on 5 pounds of sugar !

They could probably realize just as much revenue by dropping sugar price supports. Of course then our sugar would come from the Dominican Republic and we sure don't want that, do we? (We need a sarcasm emoticon!) Sugar cane growers in the south and sugar beet growers in the west wouldn't be able to compete with the price of sugar from foreign countries. So, we have cheap sugar and subsidized growers. Another case of where the primary role of government largesse is to keep people from grumbling.

Yes, these subsidizes need to be done away with. An improper role of government!

But isn't there something about sugar import quotas that are actually for the protection of HFCS producers? Without the quotas, imported sugar would be much cheaper than HFCS and food producers would switch. I may not have this exactly right but our government is helping to line the pockets of corporate farm interests who send them money for their campaigns.

[WarmBodies]

Aside from sugar, there's plenty of sweet stuff around (for diabetics, dentist's kids, etc.)
Saccharin: --I hate the metallic aftertaste. It is cheeeeap, which is why you see it everywhere.
{{If you only see pink packets, you wonder if they ever taste the food--or if they even dare.}}
Blue packet, aspartame; better (is the bad press all true? That was years ago--but still in most sweet drinks.
(I guess that proves it's poison)
The other blue packet, Sweet One (acesulfame-potassium) better, but can't find it here.
--They never got their toe in the door in the US.
Yellow packet, better still, some rumors--no bad effects that I can tell.
Natural stuff: green packet (rebiana-stevia), orange packet (monk fruit-luo han guo) Pricey stuff.
Trying out the monk fruit, still like stevia better. Not getting rid of yellow yet.
Not enough research to commit to just one, so one here, one there,--dilute the hazards
The rainbow of sweet alternatives, I feel like having a sugar free caramel, but too much maltitol makes me waaay "regular"!

I am a "pink slip" fan and have tried all the others. To my taste, none is better than "pink" in my iced tea and I don't sense a metallic aftertaste.

There was also a blog that said for 60 years saccharin has been available, has been used in great quantities, has been subjected to 60 years of testing and vicious attacks. After all this nothing bad has been found about it.

The guy was saying on the other hand, Stevia is relatively new and has not been tested and used so much. Just because it is natural does not mean it is safe!

Besides, Stevia does not taste very sweet in my iced tea.

[jnk]

. . . you left out that I said "caveat emptor". . .

Customers are often lied to. The problem is finding ways to get the information to the customer that allows him to know he's been lied to. It would go against company bylaws for it to promote information that would damage sales of its own product. That's why businesses have to be forced to do it.

Caveat emptor literally means "buyer beware," and why else does the buyer need that heads-up other than the fact that sellers are known to be highly likely to lie and cheat their customers? A buyer can only beware (caveat emptor) to the extent that the regulators have made sure he has access to the needed info, and has the means to act on that info, so that he has the ability as a buyer to be aware enough to be know exactly what to be wary of the seller about.

Caveat emptor undermines your argument of the inherent honesty of businessmen that you seem to suppose. If market competition weeded out the liars and cheaters, caveat emptor would lose its usefulness as a principle and all meaning. Caveat emptor is an indictment of sellers' motives, not an endorsement. THAT is Business 101. In my opinion.

Do you trust the opinions of your DME? Are they all trustworthy to tell their patients that data machines are better when that info hurts the DME's bottom line? I mean, they are, after all, businessmen. They should be some of the most trustworthy people on the planet, by your arguments. Or is their argument that the government made them lie by regulating them? Yeah, that makes sense.

If justice wears a blindfold, it's to keep her from taking her cues from the salesmen in the room. That's why the referees have to be there--to find ways to keep the salesmen from ripping those scales right out of her hands.

Give her the huddled masses of the knitters, monks, and artists, so the salesmen can find ways to rob them blind by competing to find the best ways to lie to them.

Competition equals trustworthiness? Seriously? That's all you've got? (You must have been hanging out with that business-monk imp-roster, rooster.) That's like saying that campaigns keep the politicians honest, since no one would ever vote for someone who lies. And that's why politicians are known for being even more honest than used-car salesmen!