Folks,
I spent the weekend at a singers convention for a cappella singers and performers (having been involved in this community for many years), and I had an interesting question. I doubt there are any studies on this, so it's mostly an intellectual exercise to get people's opinions:
Within the a cappella community (as well as in the RAP community), there are people called "Vocal Percussionists" (or in the RAP community, "Human Beatboxes"). The job consists mainly of grunting and spitting into a microphone in such a way that you create the sounds of a drum kit, entirely using your body.
One of the things which struck me while watching a class on the techniques involved was the level of control that must be achieved over the tongue, mouth, jaw and throat, and I wondered how such control would affect apnea.
On the one hand, I can see an argument that toning up those muscles might make everything firmer and thus LESS apt to close off the airways. On the other hand, making everything more limber and flexible might make it MORE apt to close when relaxed. And certainly "over doing" things could cause some sort of tiredness or injury which might decrease the ability to keep the airway open, similar to how overuse of a muscle makes it harder to lift things with that particular muscle.
I was chatting with the vocal percussionist in question (a great guy and one of the best, named Wes Carroll), and we couldn't decide on the answer, so I thought I'd ask it here.
Do you think there are any kinds of exercises we could learn to do that might help us keep our throats open during the night, or would that lead to greater flexibility and cause us even further grief?
Liam, your friend in scientific curiosity.
Sleep Apnea and singing
Sleep Apnea and singing
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Wow
Wow.
You might be on to something here.
As for me, I found that general breathing exercises help in my dealing with the pressure of my bipap. When I stop the exercises, it seems (may be only my imagination) that my struggle with the bipap gets worse.
Think there might be a connection?
Linda, who can't sing worth a darn, but can carry a happy tune! (best I could do on short notice, I'm unworthy)
You might be on to something here.
As for me, I found that general breathing exercises help in my dealing with the pressure of my bipap. When I stop the exercises, it seems (may be only my imagination) that my struggle with the bipap gets worse.
Think there might be a connection?
Linda, who can't sing worth a darn, but can carry a happy tune! (best I could do on short notice, I'm unworthy)
Voice lessons will reduce apnea
My sleep tech said that by taking voice lessons, you can actually reduce
the number of apneas you experience. I was asking about neck exercises to strengthen muscles. He said that when you lose muscle tone, in deep REM sleep, the airway collapses; however, in some studies, singers developed better airways over time. Who sings in the shower? Is it helping?
the number of apneas you experience. I was asking about neck exercises to strengthen muscles. He said that when you lose muscle tone, in deep REM sleep, the airway collapses; however, in some studies, singers developed better airways over time. Who sings in the shower? Is it helping?
Well, I've been in a couple of professional a cappella groups during my life, and I'm constantly singing, so it's certainly no cure.
But it's good information. I'd better not STOP singing, or the apnea could get worse.
Liam, glad to have a new excuse when people try to get him to shut up and stop singing.
But it's good information. I'd better not STOP singing, or the apnea could get worse.
Liam, glad to have a new excuse when people try to get him to shut up and stop singing.
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If you could sing while you sleep you might have something there!!Liam1965 wrote:Well, I've been in a couple of professional a cappella groups during my life, and I'm constantly singing, so it's certainly no cure.
But it's good information. I'd better not STOP singing, or the apnea could get worse.
Liam, glad to have a new excuse when people try to get him to shut up and stop singing.
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rested gal
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I agree with Mike that it's a problem of muscle relaxation in the throat, and that muscle "tone" wouldn't really do anything for it. Some reports have shown weight loss to lessen the pressure needed on cpap, and in a few cases "cured" the apnea - but just toning the muscles...I don't think that would have any effect during the total muscle relaxation during sleep.
muscles
But might the tone help keep the muscles from relaxing TOO much? Maybe exercises might firm up the tissues which might have been a bit looser if there weren't the exercises to the muscles?
A lean mean singing machine?
A kind of losing weight in the throat? Maybe not logical either, I guess, and may be just a matter of losing weight.
Linda, thinking out loud, a scary thought.
A lean mean singing machine?
A kind of losing weight in the throat? Maybe not logical either, I guess, and may be just a matter of losing weight.
Linda, thinking out loud, a scary thought.
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Lindiriel
I've sung too for many years.
My view is this:
I think you can improve your lung fuction. For example my peak flow, ( the max volume of air expired in a single forced breath) is 550 which is a big volume for a woman. I put this down to years of singing. Or maybe I just have a big chest
As for apnoea - I think you can improve muscle tone in your throat to a degree but I produce my voice from my diaphragm and use my airways mostly to channel the sound through my vocal cords and mouth. So its my diaphragm that gets the most exercise. Also, I've always been taught to relax my shoulders, upper chest and jaw in order to produce the best sound, so no toning there
I agree with the point made that its all relative to how much your muscles relax in sleep that causes apnoea and that will happen regardless of how well toned any muscle is.
I don't think singing would improve my apnoea but I don't care - to sing is to live!
Lindiriel, who is trying her best to develop Liamism but failing sadly
My view is this:
I think you can improve your lung fuction. For example my peak flow, ( the max volume of air expired in a single forced breath) is 550 which is a big volume for a woman. I put this down to years of singing. Or maybe I just have a big chest
As for apnoea - I think you can improve muscle tone in your throat to a degree but I produce my voice from my diaphragm and use my airways mostly to channel the sound through my vocal cords and mouth. So its my diaphragm that gets the most exercise. Also, I've always been taught to relax my shoulders, upper chest and jaw in order to produce the best sound, so no toning there
I agree with the point made that its all relative to how much your muscles relax in sleep that causes apnoea and that will happen regardless of how well toned any muscle is.
I don't think singing would improve my apnoea but I don't care - to sing is to live!
Lindiriel, who is trying her best to develop Liamism but failing sadly
Oh, absolutely. I've said it before, I'd choose to lose my singing voice before one of my children, but only JUST before, and a significant fraction of the joy would go out of my life.Lindiriel wrote:I don't think singing would improve my apnoea but I don't care - to sing is to live!
And I agree, most of the muscle tone from singing comes in the lungs, diaphragm and throat. But if you watch a vocal percussionist, they have a lot of that, but also a lot of cheeks, tongue and presumably soft palate as well. Where a singer pretty much just opens up their mouth to get resonance, the VP performer is constantly manipulating the openness inside the mouth to vary the sounds of the drums he/she is performing.
All in all, it's very impressive the amount of work they do, which is why I wondered if it makes things better, or if apnea is an occupational risk. Certainly I'd bet the one I was seeing speak doesn't have it, he's one of these "Always bright and chipper, always active" types, with way more energy than most people who aren't getting their full complement of sleep.
Liam, singing this message (although it doesn't translate into text).
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Lindiriel wrote:... I don't think singing would improve my apnoea but I don't care - to sing is to live!
Lindiriel, who is trying her best to develop Liamism but failing sadly
Interesting, Lindiriel. I wonder if Liam sings from his diaphram.
Linda, who just knew Liam would have lots to say in response to Lindiriel's abilities.
Not since we started trying to have a child. <rimshot>LDuyer wrote:Interesting, Lindiriel. I wonder if Liam sings from his diaphram.
Liam, who thinks the next major upgrade to cpaptalk should be the inclusion of a rimshot sound effect.
(For those unaware, "rimshot" is the term for that quick little drum shot that used to be popular with comedians, apparently in the belief that the audience needed some signal that a joke had occurred, so that they'd know when to laugh.)
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Liam1965 wrote: .....Liam, who thinks the next major upgrade to cpaptalk should be the inclusion of a rimshot sound effect.
(For those unaware, "rimshot" is the term for that quick little drum shot that used to be popular with comedians, apparently in the belief that the audience needed some signal that a joke had occurred, so that they'd know when to laugh.)
A good example would be our late friend Johnny Carson, who was always getting the rimshot from the drummer of Doc Severinson's band.
Linda, who thinks if we had the rimshot feature, we wouldn't hear the end of it due to Liam's prolific humorous stream of jokes.....joking to beat the band.
Liam, it would be interesting to see some proper studies done on this type of thing. If you think about it physiotherapy to strengthen damaged or weakened muscles is such a proved and tested method that it’s employed all the time. Maybe some kind of physio for the airway could be developed? Of course studies would be needed to see if it worked or was likely to work before any time and money could be sunk in it.
I wonder though, surely doctors would have tried it as soon as apnea was recognised as a syndrome? We all know how perfect and thorough they are
On a sort of related subject I've often wondered if my singing badly, or rather, unhealthily when I was in a band may have damaged my vocal chords and caused/contributed to the UARS I have now. I often had to sing backing harmonies that were too high for me at high volumes to get over the (LOUD indie guitar) music. I’d often be hoarse after rehearsals. Did this for about 6 years at least 3 times a week. I’ve never had my airway properly examined by an ENT doc though. ??
Gregg
I wonder though, surely doctors would have tried it as soon as apnea was recognised as a syndrome? We all know how perfect and thorough they are
On a sort of related subject I've often wondered if my singing badly, or rather, unhealthily when I was in a band may have damaged my vocal chords and caused/contributed to the UARS I have now. I often had to sing backing harmonies that were too high for me at high volumes to get over the (LOUD indie guitar) music. I’d often be hoarse after rehearsals. Did this for about 6 years at least 3 times a week. I’ve never had my airway properly examined by an ENT doc though. ??
Gregg