Excess Carbon dioxide in the mask?

[chunkyfrog]

Those little flaps are called the "anti-asphyxia" valve because
it prevents the wearer from being asphyxiated when airflow is stopped.
By golly, they really do think of everything!
We had one power outage while I was wearing a full face mask.
I was awakened by the noise of the flap flipping back and forth.

[dbotas]

The pressure setting averages seven.

All I know is on the Quattro air and the F 10 design the flaps regularly open and close With each breath and regularly vent air while i sleep.

The circular vents just mentioned don’t exist on the Quattro AIR, the F 10 or the F 20 masks. You are thinking of some of Resmed’s other mask designs.

Only a single straightahead flap on the Quattro air and F10 elbows and two smaller flaps oriented at a right angle on the F 20 Elbow.

The Quiet Air comment sounds like you work for Resmed because that’s exactly the phrasing they provided.

You can ignore my statement that I, my partner and the professional durable goods medical vendor who supplied the mask from Resmed all found zero air venting from the flaps on two different brand new air 20 masks if it makes your theory feel better but it’s simply not true.

As a professional HVAC engineer I can tell you the only way to vent air soundlessly is by increasing the venting opening until the vent opening is so large that zero sound is perceived. Alternatively you can reduce the air pressure until zero sound is perceived but in doing that u also greatly reduce the volume of air venting.

Although the nature / shape of the edge of the vent aperture can make a small difference, it is basically the size of the opening & the pressure that controls the amount of sound produced by the vent air.

It’s an essential law of fluid/air dynamics.

The F20 is soundless because, 1) The rotational seal on the elbow feels perfectly and 2) once the mask ramps up, the two flaps remain absolutely and entirely closed while worn. For the few moments before they slap shut you can hear & feel air exiting the two flap vents

0 Air exiting, 0 sound produced.

“You can say it ain’t so“, but why would I be going to all the trouble to document this problem... and do so by falsifying my post’s Extensive information?

As an HVAC engineer I know my two new F20 masks are venting 0 & as a professional CPAP vender, the vendor knows that the 2 masks are venting 0. That’s why they just stopped didagrering with Resmed support and gave me a new F 10 mask

We know Remed was trying to make a quiet mask with the F 20. We know or at least hope that companies test their equipment they sell

But we also alk know that occasionally something goes wrong in that process and devices are sometimes released to the public that don’t work at advertised

Occasionally people even die as a result.

I have gone to the trouble to post here precisely because the F 20 mask has posed myself and my vendor such an unexpected hard to imagine conundrum

Also it is good to note that had my lungs not had the Reactive Airway disease that they do, I would have been able to quickly detect that I was breathing too much CO2 / not getting enough oxygen while wearing both of the F20 maskS

That means normal lungs won’t observe the “apparent defect“ in the mask’s operation.

The vendor’s lungs couldn’t detect the CO2 like my compromised lungs can but they could observe by carefully monitoring the mask that the F20’s flaps close at ramp up and stay closed there after and that the F20 was venting 0 air / CO2 from any point on anyones face.

Would very much appreciate any new information that anybody can provide about this issue.

Thnx

DB

[Goofproof]

I find it hard to believe that with the machine running...regardless of the pressure...that you can exhale against that pressure and make bubbles in your humidifier.

I was kinda wondering that myself. Must have Superman breath.

Maybe he filled the HH with H2O, that has the properties of defying gravity. I once was filling a big radiator in a large truck for two engineers, they ask me how the radiator would fill up. top down, or bottom up. That's the day I learned how stupid some people with a higher Education can be. Jim

You can't debate with Stupid. The three types of Matter: Matter Anti-Matter and Don't Matter! It's amazing how much Don't Matter the World is made up from.

[jimbud]

This is the same intellectual that says he/she has a:

Re: 26 y/o female w/ suspected UARS. OSCAR data help (Thread)

by dbotas » Sun May 24, 2020 11:28 am (post)

I’ve been using a BiPAP Resmed air sense 10

JPB

[Dog Slobber]

Would very much appreciate any new information that anybody can provide about this issue.

Why so you can accuse them of being a ResMed Shill?

I don't know what's worse how many times you are incorrect in your post, or the authority you use stating your incorrect conclusions as fact.

You want evidence, take a look in the manual of any ResMed mask guide, you will see the venting amounts measured in Litres per minute measured against pressure. But probably the most compelling evidence is the fact that you claimed to use it for a night, there was no venting and you didn't die.

[ChicagoGranny]

The circular vents just mentioned don’t exist on the Quattro AIR, the F 10 or the F 20 masks.

Zoom in on the photo and look at the small vent holes that are aligned in a circle - https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... k-headgear . I just looked at mine. Daylight can be seen through the vent holes.

I, my partner and the professional durable goods medical vendor who supplied the mask from Resmed all found zero air venting from the flaps on two different brand new air 20 masks

That's the way anti-asphyxia valves are designed to work when the circuit is running. They are designed to open when the circuit is not running.

once the mask ramps up, the two flaps remain absolutely and entirely closed while worn. For the few moments before they slap shut you can hear & feel air exiting the two flap vents

That is exactly the way anti-asphyxia valves are designed to work. It's the way all the anti-asphyxia valves work on the half dozen FFMs I own.

The rotational seal on the elbow feels perfectly

This makes zero sense grammatically. Is there a typo?

The pressure setting averages seven.

A pressure setting is not an average. It's either one fixed number or a minimum and maximum number. What is your pressure setting(s)?

by falsifying my post’s Extensive information

I don't think you are falsifying anything. But, you seem to have made something overcomplicated, and you are confused. As far as your DME, this forum is rife with incorrect statements made by DME employees.

The ResMed AirFit F20 Full Face CPAP Mask is a popular mask. There are over 500 reviews from users on cpap.com. The reviews average 4.5 stars out of 5.0 stars. This is a high rating for a CPAP mask.

Now, zoom in on the photo ( https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... k-headgear ) while holding the mask. Find those little vent holes. Hold it up to a window or light, and you can see through the holes.

[Dog Slobber]

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... k-headgear

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed ... k-headgear

Are you a Shill for CPAP.COM?

You linked to them twice, and that's what a CPAP.COM employee would do.

[ChicagoGranny]

dbotas

OK, I found your other thread where you say,

automatic setting tween 4 and 20 for about six years

So, maybe you are using pressure settings of 4.0 minimum and 20.0 maximum? If you really think the exhaled air is not getting cleared, raise your minimum pressure to 7.0 cm H2O. Leave the maximum at 20.0.

[ChicagoGranny]

Are you a Shill for CPAP.COM?

Chill. Chill. I'm a chill for many things. Not specifically cpap.com. They're very chill already.

[jimbud]

As a professional HVAC engineer I can tell you the only way to vent air soundlessly is by increasing the venting opening until the vent opening is so large that zero sound is perceived. Alternatively you can reduce the air pressure until zero sound is perceived but in doing that u also greatly reduce the volume of air venting.


“You can say it ain’t so“

Occasionally people even die as a result.



Would very much appreciate any new information that anybody can provide about this issue.

Thnx

DB

How about a whole bunch of little holes and quite low pressure. Say in cm's perhaps (like say CPAP pressures)

[chunkyfrog]

I am PROUD to promote cpap.com. I have received absolutely NO compensation,
other than the honest, reasonable service they offer to everyone.
I believe shills receive monetary compensation--I need no such thing.
What they offer is a patch of bright light in a world of darkness and deceit.

[dbotas]

If anyone is using an Resmed Airfit F20 or AirTouch F20 mask and can document that the siphon vent flaps are cycling open and closed while in use, could you report that here to this conversation along with the pressure setting your CPAP is operating at?

Thnx

DB

[Julie]

Chunky - I hope Johhny and Caroline see your post and frame it - wow!

[palerider]

First night I wore it it worked fine except that I quickly realized I was not getting enough oxygen

It's almost impossible for people to tell that they're getting hypoxic, without training.

I soon noticed 0 air was escaping from the F20's 2 elbow siphon valves as always occurs with the Quattro Air. Once the machine powers up the two flaps on the sides of the F20's elbow slap shut and NEVER open again. 0 leakage.

The anti-asphyxiation flaps should be firmly shut whenever the machine is on, otherwise you'd have a *HUGE* leak.

The elbow in the F20 has diffused venting, you have to get right up against it to feel the air.

If it wasn't venting CO2 from the mask, you'd start to suffocate within a minute, and be literally gasping hugely for air, trying to get rid of the buildup of CO2.

I have had friends watch the flaps closely while holding a feather around the new pivot point etc. Absolutely 0 exit air with the F20.

The flaps should *NEVER* open while the machine is on, they open so you don't die if the machine goes off. If you were able to wear the mask for more than a few minutes, then it's venting, otherwise you'd be dead.

no CO2 is being siphoned away. 0 ... none ... nada!

Are you dead?

That's true but in my opinion they did not alter the controlling algorithm to account for the tighter seal so there is more pressure constantly exerted on the exhale flaps and they never open again to siphon out C02 while the machine is operating. No wonder the mask is SUPER quiet!

That's not how the cpaps work. There is *ZERO* reason to alter anything at all about the machine, the flaps are NOT supposed to open, they never have.

Either it is a algorithm pressure issue or alternatively the issue might be caused by the siphon air having to make a right angle to exit the F20's smaller two flaps where with the Quattro it exits straight ahead through one larger flap. (As a retired HVAC engineer I can tell u definitively that making air or a liquid make a right angle creates substantial back pressure resistance and cuts down on flow severely so that might be the issue rather than the machine's controlling algorithm

Your experience with HVAC is not applicable to a cpap.

HVAC isn't pressurized, CPAP is. You're being confused by inapplicable experience. And yes, I've had HVAC training, I've done HVAC work, and have several friends that do HVAC work. You're still wrong.

I suspect people with sleep apnea and normal lungs don't notice because they can better process what 02 there is much better than my lungs can.

Do you think Resmed is really stupid enough to market a mask that would kill every single person using it? Imagine the lawsuits.

Can anyone else comment on this F20 non opening flaps / CO2 issue or a possible solution?

I think I've adequately addressed the issue.

[palerider]

The pressure setting averages seven.

All I know is on the Quattro air and the F 10 design the flaps regularly open and close With each breath and regularly vent air while i sleep.

No, they don't.

You can ignore my statement that I, my partner and the professional durable goods medical vendor who supplied the mask from Resmed all found zero air venting from the flaps on two different brand new air 20 masks if it makes your theory feel better but it’s simply not true.

You're simply wrong.

As a professional HVAC engineer I can tell you the only way to vent air soundlessly is by increasing the venting opening until the vent opening is so large that zero sound is perceived. Alternatively you can reduce the air pressure until zero sound is perceived but in doing that u also greatly reduce the volume of air venting.

Again, you're wrong.

I have several masks that are *silent* with the air vented, a Resmed Mirage Quattro makes no detectable sound, it does however create a forceful jet of air that will make considerable noise should it hit anything within half a foot of the mask.

I have a Resmed P10 mask that is silent due to the diffused vent, which can't even be felt unless you're within less than an inch from the vent.

My Bleep mask has a diffuser on its vent, and makes no noise.

The F20 is soundless because, 1) The rotational seal on the elbow feels perfectly and 2) once the mask ramps up, the two flaps remain absolutely and entirely closed while worn. For the few moments before they slap shut you can hear & feel air exiting the two flap vents

0 Air exiting, 0 sound produced.

“You can say it ain’t so“, but why would I be going to all the trouble to document this problem... and do so by falsifying my post’s Extensive information?

Because you're *MISTAKEN* about the *FACTS*

As an HVAC engineer...
Occasionally people even die as a result.

Yeah, Resmed is covering up hundreds of dead people, If you were right, then everybody that strapped on one of those masks *WOULD BE DEAD*, there'd be news reports, there'd be lawsuits all over the place.

You've got a theory, but it's full of holes and won't hold water. (just like the mask).

I have gone to the trouble to post here precisely because the F 20 mask has posed myself and my vendor such an unexpected hard to imagine conundrum

Your vendor gave you another mask just to get rid of you.

That means normal lungs won’t observe the “apparent defect“ in the mask’s operation.

The vendor’s lungs couldn’t detect the CO2 like my compromised lungs can but they could observe by carefully monitoring the mask that the F20’s flaps close at ramp up and stay closed there after and that the F20 was venting 0 air / CO2 from any point on anyones face.

"lungs" don't "detect" anything about CO2, other processes in your body do, and as CO2 builds up, the acid level in your blood increases, and your respiratory system increases it's breathing effort. Within a couple minutes you'll be heaving for air (assuming you aren't deep diver in training).

Your theory is simply ridiculous.

Put the mask on for 10 minutes, if you're NOT DEAD, then it's venting CO2, period, case closed.