Why am I MORE tired when I dream?

psychomamma · Post by **psychomamma** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:38 pm

First, let me say my sleep apnea is not being treated. I can't tolerate the CPAP, no matter what I've done. My docs say it's surgery or nothing.

My question is unrelated to this, though (just knew you'd ask!). My doc once told me that I got hardly any REM or Delta wave sleep. How I feel (exhaustion-wise) seems to go in cycles, though. I go through weeks (usually around my period) where I have insomnia a lot, can't sleep, remember no dreams whatsoever -- but during the day I feel pretty good. Then other times (like now) - I am sleepy by 9 pm, dream a lot of vivid dreams, feel like I sleep really well -- but during the day I am totally bone-tired exhausted and could probably fall asleep standing!

It makes no sense to me - if I'm dreaming, I'm getting REM sleep, right? So why am I MORE tired during those times? And why do my symptoms seem cyclical? Is it possible to have sleep apnea sometimes and not others?

Hope you can help, even though technically I'm on a CPAP talk forum and not really a CPAP user...

Lisa...

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:52 pm

Because the absolute worst time to wake up is during REM sleep. (The best is in Stage 1 of the 3rd or 4th sleep cycle of the night.)

In fact, ideally you would have REM sleep at least 2 or 3 times a night but never remember a single dream. You only dream when you wake up during REM. If you sleep all the way through it, which is much healthier, you don't remember it. So in fact, it may be that when you don't remember your dreams, you're actually sleeping *better* (although less) because you're sleeping through your REM cycle rather than waking up during it.

tattooyu · Post by **tattooyu** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:54 pm

Don't forget that most apneas happen during REM, so you're probably being deprived of oxygen more then than when you're not hitting REM.

JohnBFisher · Post by **JohnBFisher** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:59 pm

psychomamma wrote:... It makes no sense to me - if I'm dreaming, I'm getting REM sleep, right? So why am I MORE tired during those times? And why do my symptoms seem cyclical? Is it possible to have sleep apnea sometimes and not others? ...

Well, you've actually answered your own question. Your pressure requirements change as you sleep. When you go into REM sleep, the body relaxes (disengages) muscles even more. So, your airway will tend to obstruct even more during REM sleep. The fact that you are getting little REM sleep is an indication that you are waking up (at least a little) and not reaching REM sleep. But when you are more tired (and need the deeper sleep), you do attain the REM sleep. But you probably have more problems breathing during those nights than when you don't reach REM sleep.

Also, just to be aware ... and it was a surprise to me ... you can dream outside of REM sleep. Also, be very careful about untreated OSA. Eventually you WILL need to dream. When I was initially diagnosed, I got so tired that I would dream when I blinked my eyes. Needless to say, that is VERY dangerous if you are driving.

DreamOn · Post by **DreamOn** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:05 pm

I'm quite new here, but I just read some of your older posts to get an idea why CPAP may not be working for you. Is aerophagia your main problem? I see that you are a devoted yoga practioner. This may be naive of me, but is there anything in your training that may help you overcome this? I know that breathing is such a big part of yoga, and I wonder if you could be breathing in a way that's actually counterproductive when using the CPAP?

I just hate to see someone give up. I suppose sometimes CPAP just doesn't work out, but surgery isn't always the full solution either.

Best wishes,

DreamOn

psychomamma · Post by **psychomamma** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:22 pm

Oh yes, that all makes sense! Thanks.

Yes, DreamOn, it's aphagia that's got me. I wake up after about 2-3 hours FULL of air -- I'm almost crying because it is so totally painful. Exactly the feeling I had after laproscopic surgery when they left me full of air. Takes me burping and farting the rest of the night to get over it. Someone on here suggested I see if I have GERD, so I went to the ENT -- he would not even TALK to me about GERD, just wanted to do the surgery. I'm not doing surgery, for sure.

The problem with this disease is that I need to persevere, and I'm too exhausted to do anything about it. I will probably go on anti-depressants next week, my hopeless feeling is so bad....I'm out of options and I don't know what else to do.

Thanks for the help, guys! You're all the best!
Lisa...

DreamOn · Post by **DreamOn** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:26 pm

psychomamma wrote:Someone on here suggested I see if I have GERD, so I went to the ENT -- he would not even TALK to me about GERD, just wanted to do the surgery. I'm not doing surgery, for sure.

You need to meet with a gastroenterologist, not an ENT doctor. Your esophageal sphincter may be letting air into your stomach. You should insist on being thoroughly evaluated and tested for GERD and any other condition that may be causing this problem.

Have you tried the different sleeping positions suggested for aerophagia? Breathing exercises to strenghten the esophageal sphincter, in case that is the problem? Raising the head of the bed? There's a lot of information on aerophagia in forum posts, the new Wiki (at the top of the page), and on the internet. Maybe you missed one before that will prove to be the key to your success.

I understand your extreme fatigue, but your health is at stake here! I hope you can find the strength to persevere. The antidepressants are only a temporary fix, and the sleep apnea is still damaging your body every night. Please don't let it go on and do more damage. I learned that the hard way.

I hope you feel better soon!!!

~ DreamOn

(edited)

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:47 pm

JohnBFisher wrote:
psychomamma wrote:Also, just to be aware ... and it was a surprise to me ... you can dream outside of REM sleep. Also, be very careful about untreated OSA. Eventually you WILL need to dream. When I was initially diagnosed, I got so tired that I would dream when I blinked my eyes. Needless to say, that is VERY dangerous if you are driving.

Yeah, that's for sure. I don't miss those days! I wasn't quite to the point of dreaming while blinking, but in college I could nod off in class and have a complete epic dream between nodding off and my roommate (who sat next to me in the class where I did it the most) elbowing me ... about 3-5 seconds.

jweeks · Post by **jweeks** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:27 pm

psychomamma wrote:First, let me say my sleep apnea is not being treated. I can't tolerate the CPAP, no matter what I've done. My docs say it's surgery or nothing.

Hi,

The only surgery that has a high rate of success for OSA is a tracheotomy. Is that what you are planning? I guess if you have to do it, you have little choice. But I suspect that I would jump through a lot of hoops before going that far. What specific sleep issue do you have? Any chance a dental device and sleeping position could help reduce the level of pressure that you need? Going without treatment for OSA is a monumentally bad idea since it can cause pretty severe damage to your heart over time and it has the possibility of causing you to have a stroke. You really don't want to go there.

-john-

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