Cats, kidney disease, and sleep apnea

[sylvie]

Around the same time I was diagnosed and have been managing my SA, my cat was diagnosed with kidney disease (CKD cats), so I have been trying to extend her life with prescription food and meds. I recently happened uponed a drug called Azodyl, a probiotic. The reviews on Amazon are quite laudatory in helping CKD cats. Apparently once CKD cats' kidneys get compromised, scar tissue replaces healthy and somehow the Azodyl either replaces the scar tissue with healthy or something else, I'm not sure. I know longstanding, untreated SA leads to brain damage, where healthy tissue is replaced by scar tissue. Would it make sense that a probiotic might aid with SA also? Does anyone have any comments about this? Also, does anyone know about any foods/meds that might help the SA-damaged brain?

[Matty332]

Hey Sylvie,

I have never read that before but I don't think anything in the brain gets replaced with scar tissue if damaged. The brain doesn't work like that in my limited knowledge of it. It was the properties of plasticity and is constantly regenerating every day with new brain cells/neurons. It is only when the damage that is being done is too great for the regeneration property that you start getting cognative difficulty.

I doubt that probiotics would fix brain damage, but what would I know? Maybe probiotics may fix something else in your digestive system that may then support your brain and other organs better who knows. I read a book once about how alot of the human body is harbor to bacteria and needs it to function. There was a story in the book of a woman with some sort of chronic bowel disease that had been hospitalized for months and nothing that they could do would fix her, they tried antibiotics and everything. She was surely a goner.

Then the doctor for some reason or another decided to try a poo transplant from her husband. So they got some of his feces, made it into liquid, and squirted the liquid into the sick womans bowels. She was cured in days. That is no word of a lie (although the details may be off a bit). This showed that the body needs healthy bacteria and obviously the husbands healthy bacteria destroyed any bad bacteria in the womans bowels.

There is so much that is not known about medicine and the human body. We are still in early days. Keep giving your cat that probiotics though!

[chunkyfrog]

I'm sorry about your furbaby.
Hoping for the best outcome for her/him.

[sylvie]

I have never read that before but I don't think anything in the brain gets replaced with scar tissue if damaged. The brain doesn't work like that in my limited knowledge of it. It was the properties of plasticity and is constantly regenerating every day with new brain cells/neurons. It is only when the damage that is being done is too great for the regeneration property that you start getting cognative difficulty.

Thanks very much for your response. Now that I think of it, I had read on another's post that they had read that the brain shinks 20% from SA and then new tissue regrows, but that the new tissue is nonfunctional, so I don't know if you have read this anywhere? So from your answer, do you think this means that cognitive difficulties will not get corrected with new neurons if the damage exceeds a certain limit? I'm thinking that once one gets their SA managed with some sort of sleep therapy (CPAP, oral appliance) and hopefully no more damage would occur, wouldn't you think that this would give the brain time to catch up and clean up all the damage?

chunkyfrog,
Thanks for your kind remarks regarding my kittie. It has been challenging trying to get my SA under control and researching that, while at the same time researching cat chronic kidney disease and trying to save my cat's life.

[Matty332]

Absolutely no doubt about it - with enough time on CPAP your brain can rewire. Just talk to Max darkside (another member on this forum). His story is absolutely amazing, Sleep apnea killed him and he came back to life - after a few months on CPAP his mental functioning is almost to what it was before SA. I often read his story again when I need inspiration. Keep on the CPAP and you will be fine!

[user from Singapore]

I am afraid you got a misleading interpretation of what this product can do.

A probiotic is a beneficial bacteria that develops and grows in the digestive tract of your cat (or in yours if you consume - for instance - yoghurt supplemented with probiotics). Beneficial bacteria meaning that it does not harm its host and can have some positive effects. For instance probiotics can be used to restore the flora after an antibiotic treatment or to prevent proliferation of pathogenic bacteria such as coliforms or Salmonella. They can also positively affect the immune defense.

After a bit of reading on that specific probiotic which you mentioned, I understand that the bacteria have the ability to use some of the toxins present in the digestive tract (so-called uremic toxins). Since the toxins have been metabolized by the bacteria, they cannot damage the kidney. If you manage to reduce
uremic toxin buildup, this will help prevent further kidney damage. To claim that the bacteria itself replaces the damaged tissue needs to be documented and I am quite convinced this is not possible. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Cereal Killer]

I have never read that before but I don't think anything in the brain gets replaced with scar tissue if damaged.

Where do you get this information? I have seen the images from UCLA Medical study of untreated apnea cases. There were plenty of scars on the brain. One of the experienced researchers described the extent of the scars as frightening to him.

Just talk to Max darkside (another member on this forum). His story is absolutely amazing, Sleep apnea killed him and he came back to life - after a few months on CPAP his mental functioning is almost to what it was before SA.

I have read a number of his posts. There is not even anecdotal evidence that his brain regenerated connections and matter. Most likely the improvement he saw was by eliminating severe sleep deprivation.

I often read his story again when I need inspiration. Keep on the CPAP and you will be fine!

This is true.

[janekibow]

The probiotics in Azodyl are a combination of beneficial bacteria which metabolize the nitrogenous waste that diffuses from the bloodstream into the bowel. The nitrogen is utilized as nutrients by the probiotics, As the microbes grow and multiply, they consume more and more nitrogenous waste. So the probiotic reduces the burden on the kidneys, shifting some of the elimination of uremic toxins from the kidneys to the bowel. This dietary supplement does not affect the kidneys in any way. There is also a human version of the probiotic supplement, called Renadyl.

[Maxie]

Sorry to hear about your kitty!

[Cereal Killer]

The probiotics in Azodyl are a combination of beneficial bacteria which metabolize the nitrogenous waste that diffuses from the bloodstream into the bowel. The nitrogen is utilized as nutrients by the probiotics, As the microbes grow and multiply, they consume more and more nitrogenous waste. So the probiotic reduces the burden on the kidneys, shifting some of the elimination of uremic toxins from the kidneys to the bowel. This dietary supplement does not affect the kidneys in any way. There is also a human version of the probiotic supplement, called Renadyl*.

* These statements have not been evaluated by the US Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[sylvie]

Wow! I can't get enough of this thread! Thanks for everyone's input. I have a better understanding of Azodyl now, though I never new exactly how it worked.

Cereal Killer,

This freaks me out:

"I have seen the images from UCLA Medical study of untreated apnea cases. There were plenty of scars on the brain. One of the experienced researchers described the extent of the scars as frightening to him."

I guess there's no use in getting depressed about it, since there's nothing I can do now, except "suck it up and drive on," exercise, eat well, sleep well, and pray for the best.

By the way, the images you saw of untreated apnea cases, did you happen to know how many years the subjects went untreated? (Probably, this was not even possible to know?)

P.S. Just curious...why do you call yourself "Cereal Killer"?

[Matty332]

I have never read that before but I don't think anything in the brain gets replaced with scar tissue if damaged.

Where do you get this information? I have seen the images from UCLA Medical study of untreated apnea cases. There were plenty of scars on the brain. One of the experienced researchers described the extent of the scars as frightening to him.

Just talk to Max darkside (another member on this forum). His story is absolutely amazing, Sleep apnea killed him and he came back to life - after a few months on CPAP his mental functioning is almost to what it was before SA.

I have read a number of his posts. There is not even anecdotal evidence that his brain regenerated connections and matter. Most likely the improvement he saw was by eliminating severe sleep deprivation.

I often read his story again when I need inspiration. Keep on the CPAP and you will be fine!

This is true.

I never claimed to be an expert on the matter. I just read somewhere that scar tissue on the brain and on the skin are different.

but in regards to Max DS,

I didn't explicitly say that his brain regenerated and rewired I said his mental functioning almost returned to normal after a long period of time. So if you have seen pictures of scar tissue of untreated OSA victims brain, and max DS had severe sleep apnea for years - presuming he had scar tissue too - how the heck do you think it is that he is almost back to normal mental functioning?? It is certainly not from 'eliminating severe sleep deprivation' if he presumably had scar tissue?

How do you know this BTW, are you are neuroscientist? I am not saying I am by any means - but I have read published papers in various journals from various sources about the brains ability to recover.

Come on where is your optimism!

[-tim]

I think my cat has sleep apena. She has all the symptoms. She snores. She can't get through the day without naps. Shes a bit on the heavy side. She complains if she doesn't get a good days sleep and shes just not as active as she used to be. She also had stones and is now on the Royal Canin SD food which she likes much better than the 1st stuff the vet gave her.

[greatunclebill]

I have seen the images from UCLA Medical study of untreated apnea cases. There were plenty of scars on the brain. One of the experienced researchers described the extent of the scars as frightening to him.

i had a series of ct scans last year ordered by a neurologist. i was initially diagnosed with sleep apnea in 1990 and pretty much non-compliant with cpap until feb '12. i would think if anybody has scars or other evidence of damage it would be me. the only thing mentioned from the head scan was sinus infection and no previous strokes.

[sylvie]

I think my cat has sleep apena. She has all the symptoms. She snores. She can't get through the day without naps. Shes a bit on the heavy side. She complains if she doesn't get a good days sleep and shes just not as active as she used to be. She also had stones and is now on the Royal Canin SD food which she likes much better than the 1st stuff the vet gave her.

Too funny. However, my cat hated the Royal Canin, but she likes the Purina NF.