Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

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emals
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Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by emals » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:13 am

Hey everyone,

I am a long time lurker on this forum but have never had a reason to actually post myself, before now. First, let me start off by giving a little bit of background on my sleep journey thus far. I am 30 year old male, 5' 8" and weigh 145 lbs. Since I was a teenager, I have suffered from severe insomnia. I used to routinely go to bed at 4 am (as you'll see, I still do), wake up at 7 for school and STILL not be tired the next night. This went on for so long that my primary care prescribed me Ambien for 5 years, until I finally stopped around 21 years old when I switched PCP's. My new PCP was aghast at the thought of a teenager with a developing brain being prescribed such a strong medication for so many years. Needless to say, I got my first sleep study when I was about 23 years old. Like any person in their early 20's, I couldn't be bothered to go to a follow up appointment at the time to discuss my results :|

A couple of years later, I finally decided to call up the sleep center and request a copy of my results. The first one was uneventful, other than the fact that I had 150 arousals (Index = 28.2), 53 RERA's (Index = 10), and 1 OSA event, but I never fell below 93% oxygen saturation. Nonetheless, they still diagnosed me with obstructive sleep apnea. Fast forward to 2017, when I move out of state and my NEW primary care sends me for a second sleep study with CPAP titration. I took a single Benadryl to help sleep that night but still only got 2 hours and 20 minutes of sleep (the sleep center was wild). In that short time, at a pressure of 7 cm H2O, I had an AHI of 71.8 with O2 as low as 78%!! Overall, they determined that I was intolerant to CPAP for whatever reason and recommended a follow up with BiPAP titration. Two months later, I go for another sleep study using BiPAP with a FFM. I end that study, having had an AHI of 0 and only two RERA's at a final pressure of 12 IPAP/7 EPAP. The comments also said "since the patient has some remaining snoring events, BPAP pressure of 13/9 cm of water may be more optimal."

After I started treatment, I was still noticing fatigue the next day even after sleeping 7-8 hours. I will admit, that I was VERY inconsistent with my treatment, partially due to my perceived lack of benefits. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and take the mask off, or not wear it at all. I am now at a point in my life where I have taken my health much more seriously the last few years and feel as though quality sleep is the missing link. Since my early 20's, I've been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia (which causes me substantial pain at night) as well as a torn labrum of the shoulder (which causes me to toss and turn A LOT). I'm not sure if either of these conditions have anything to do with my terrible sleep or not. Anyway, I finally decided to download and upload my 3 years worth of data into OSCAR and was concerned with what I saw. From the day I took the machine home until now, my AHI's seem out of control. I typically have an AHI of between 20-30, sometimes 40 and I've NEVER seen a pretty AHI # <1 like many users on here. In addition, the type of apnea's OSCAR is showing are predominately Clear Airway apnea's that scarily resemble Cheyne-Stokes respirations. After doing some major reading on the forums over the last week, I decided to make some changes in the clinical menu of my machine and set it to VAuto. I don't necessarily feel comfortable having done this without the recommendation of those who are more knowledgeable but I also don't have a Dr. to consult right now unfortunately. Since I've tweaked the settings, I've noticed a drop in my overall AHI score but am still having the CA apneas with the Cheyne-Stokes respirations. OSCAR is not labeling them as such but I'm concerned at the thought nonetheless. Here is an example from last week when the machine was set for (12 IPAP/7 EPAP) and another from this week set on VAuto (5-15, PS = 4). What do you guys think? ANY input would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the long drawn out post. I just don't want to miss any important pieces!


TL;DR

I am concerned that I'm having central apnea's and Cheyne-Stokes Respirations.

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Julie
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by Julie » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:44 am

Bumping up for better response.

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Pugsy
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am

Change your PS to 1....no other changes and lets see what happens.

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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by palerider » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:06 am

Lower your PS to four,and let's see what happens

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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by zonker » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am

palerider wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:06 am
Lower your PS to four,and let's see what happens
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am
Change your PS to 1....no other changes and lets see what happens.
hmmm???
:wink:
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:16 am

zonker wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am
palerider wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:06 am
Lower your PS to four,and let's see what happens
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am
Change your PS to 1....no other changes and lets see what happens.
hmmm???
:wink:
I don't think PR saw the July 4 report where PS of 4 was already posted so it was already tried. There was improvement but not enough which is why I suggested PS of 1....bigger change and see how much more improvement we get and then maybe work from there depending on the results.

I have sent PR a PM about the July 4 report (I think it was July 4) but it's above somewhere....he probably just missed it.

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zonker
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by zonker » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:20 am

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:16 am
zonker wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am
palerider wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:06 am
Lower your PS to four,and let's see what happens
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am
Change your PS to 1....no other changes and lets see what happens.
hmmm???
:wink:
I don't think PR saw the July 4 report where PS of 4 was already posted so it was already tried. There was improvement but not enough which is why I suggested PS of 1....bigger change and see how much more improvement we get and then maybe work from there depending on the results.

I have sent PR a PM about the July 4 report (I think it was July 4) but it's above somewhere....he probably just missed it.
just pulling both of your legs. er, i mean pulling both you and palerider's legs.

gad, english can be so cumbersome!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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emals
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by emals » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm

Wow, thank you all for the quick replies. It is very much appreciated.

I will definitely lower the PS to 1 tonight, see if that helps and report back to you all.

Another member had mentioned that it seems like I have Complex Sleep Apnea and require an upgrade from my Resmed 10 VAuto to the Resmed 10 ASV machine instead. Any thoughts on whether I should consider going this route, in conjunction with making some short-term changes to my current device for some *hopefully* better sleep?

Zonker, your use of "gad" immediately reminded and made me nostalgic for when I lived in New York :lol:

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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by zonker » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:45 pm

emals wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm
Wow, thank you all for the quick replies. It is very much appreciated.
can't speak for the others, but i practically live here.

kind of sad, really.
emals wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm

Zonker, your use of "gad" immediately reminded and made me nostalgic for when I lived in New York :lol:
we live to serve.
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm

Here's the deal....for some people (very small minority of people using cpap with pressure support) that pressure support can actually trigger central apnea. Long complicated explanation which I don't have time to go into at the moment but it happens and we see it here and sometimes the fix is something as simple as reducing or eliminating pressure support.

So yes...it is very possible that pressure support (PS is nothing more than the difference between inhale and exhale) caused you to have Complex Sleep Apnea. Yes, the usual treatment for Complex SA is the ASV machine but sometimes all it takes is reducing or eliminating pressure support. Aside from the cost factor...it's a more comfortable solution....trust me.

We will know more once we see the results of a PS of 1 and when I have time later I will try to explain the why behind all this.
But I will share this...I have a good friend who needs a pressure in the high teens to deal with her OSA stuff...so she really needs exhale relief/pressure support to be comfortable with her pressures. She was getting around 15 central apneas per hour average night after night with a PS of 4. I thought for sure she was going to need ASV but on a lark we decided to try just a 1 cm reduction in PS to 3. Her centrals essentially went away....she gets maybe less than one per hour average. She needed the PS for comfort and couldn't do without it but we decided to try a modest 1 cm reduction and the bulk of her centrals went away. She got to keep her current machine...didn't have to go through all the hurdles required to get ASV (new sleep study, titration, doctor visits, etc...and those costs) and more machine copay expense...all with a little 1 cm change in PS. Sometimes we do get miracles and they are especially nice when they don't cost us anything in terms of time, aggravation or money.

Exhale relief...that's pressure support...it creates a bilevel pressure situation. Sometimes bilevel actually triggers centrals in some people. Totally weird because the usual first line of defense for someone with centrals is to give them a bilevel machine. :lol:
Just goes to tell you that there are no hard fast rules when it comes to any cpap therapy.

I don't know yet if you need ASV but just with seeing the difference between 5 PS and 4 PS...that reduction...I am betting that with a lower PS you won't have a problem with centrals.

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palerider
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by palerider » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:02 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:16 am
zonker wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am
palerider wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:06 am
Lower your PS to four,and let's see what happens
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:03 am
Change your PS to 1....no other changes and lets see what happens.
hmmm???
:wink:
I don't think PR saw the July 4 report where PS of 4 was already posted so it was already tried. There was improvement but not enough which is why I suggested PS of 1....bigger change and see how much more improvement we get and then maybe work from there depending on the results.

I have sent PR a PM about the July 4 report (I think it was July 4) but it's above somewhere....he probably just missed it.
Nope, missed that. :( Go with what Pugsy said.

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marceltcm
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by marceltcm » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:21 am

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm


Exhale relief...that's pressure support...it creates a bilevel pressure situation. Sometimes bilevel actually triggers centrals in some people. Totally weird because the usual first line of defense for someone with centrals is to give them a bilevel machine. :lol:
Just goes to tell you that there are no hard fast rules when it comes to any cpap therapy.
Sorry by just popping up within the discussion, but I got a a doubt here. I have a Resmed Auto S10 CPAP, it has the pressure exhale relief option, it's the same of a bilevel machin? The same of pressure support? If so, should I try to get used with CPAP without this option sice it could trigger Central Apnea?
Tnx in advance.

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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by Pugsy » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:38 am

marceltcm wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:21 am
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm


Exhale relief...that's pressure support...it creates a bilevel pressure situation. Sometimes bilevel actually triggers centrals in some people. Totally weird because the usual first line of defense for someone with centrals is to give them a bilevel machine. :lol:
Just goes to tell you that there are no hard fast rules when it comes to any cpap therapy.
Sorry by just popping up within the discussion, but I got a a doubt here. I have a Resmed Auto S10 CPAP, it has the pressure exhale relief option, it's the same of a bilevel machin? The same of pressure support? If so, should I try to get used with CPAP without this option sice it could trigger Central Apnea?
Tnx in advance.

Any form of exhale relief creates a bilevel pressure situation. Bilevel is nothing more than 2 distinct pressures...one for inhale and a different pressure for exhale. So using EPR on the ResMed machines essentially creates a limited bilevel...limited because the amount of difference is limited to 3 cm at that setting of 3. A full grown bilevel machine offers more than a 3 cm difference between inhale and exhale.
So any difference between inhale and exhale is called pressure support....no matter if it comes from using exhale relief (EPR on ResMed or Flex on Respironics) or official label on a full grown bilevel machine.

Now...as to whether or not to use EPR (or any exhale relief)....if you like EPR and it doesn't cause central apneas there is absolutely no reason to not use it if you like it and makes things more comfortable for you.
If you aren't having a large number of centrals caused by using EPR the is no reason to not use it just because it "might" cause centrals later. The number of people who using exhale relief and a bilevel situation where it causes centrals is actually very low...it's a very small subset of people who have this sort of reaction.
I use EPR...love it...it doesn't cause me to have centrals in a number that is a problem. Remember an occasional central is normal and expected and no big deal. It's only when we consistently have a large number of centrals that the centrals become a problem....how many....I start worrying about them when they reach around a 4 to 5 per hour average...every night. A random bad night I never worry about.

So just because it can cause centrals in a small subset of people doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't use it just because it "can" maybe cause a problem. If we aren't having a problem...no reason for us to not use if if we want to.
It is unlikely to change in the future unless something changes with the body (like an addition of pain meds that might suppress respiration).

So unless you are now having a large number of centrals consistently...there is no reason in the world to not use it if it is something you like.

Exhale relief has always been considered a comfort feature that the patients all have the ability to change at will. If it was such a dire critical thing for people to not use it...it wouldn't be so easily and readily available to people.

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marceltcm
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Re: Cheyne-Stokes Respirations

Post by marceltcm » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:01 am

Pugsy wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:38 am
marceltcm wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:21 am
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:49 pm


Exhale relief...that's pressure support...it creates a bilevel pressure situation. Sometimes bilevel actually triggers centrals in some people. Totally weird because the usual first line of defense for someone with centrals is to give them a bilevel machine. :lol:
Just goes to tell you that there are no hard fast rules when it comes to any cpap therapy.
Sorry by just popping up within the discussion, but I got a a doubt here. I have a Resmed Auto S10 CPAP, it has the pressure exhale relief option, it's the same of a bilevel machin? The same of pressure support? If so, should I try to get used with CPAP without this option sice it could trigger Central Apnea?
Tnx in advance.

Any form of exhale relief creates a bilevel pressure situation. Bilevel is nothing more than 2 distinct pressures...one for inhale and a different pressure for exhale. So using EPR on the ResMed machines essentially creates a limited bilevel...limited because the amount of difference is limited to 3 cm at that setting of 3. A full grown bilevel machine offers more than a 3 cm difference between inhale and exhale.
So any difference between inhale and exhale is called pressure support....no matter if it comes from using exhale relief (EPR on ResMed or Flex on Respironics) or official label on a full grown bilevel machine.

Now...as to whether or not to use EPR (or any exhale relief)....if you like EPR and it doesn't cause central apneas there is absolutely no reason to not use it if you like it and makes things more comfortable for you.
If you aren't having a large number of centrals caused by using EPR the is no reason to not use it just because it "might" cause centrals later. The number of people who using exhale relief and a bilevel situation where it causes centrals is actually very low...it's a very small subset of people who have this sort of reaction.
I use EPR...love it...it doesn't cause me to have centrals in a number that is a problem. Remember an occasional central is normal and expected and no big deal. It's only when we consistently have a large number of centrals that the centrals become a problem....how many....I start worrying about them when they reach around a 4 to 5 per hour average...every night. A random bad night I never worry about.

So just because it can cause centrals in a small subset of people doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't use it just because it "can" maybe cause a problem. If we aren't having a problem...no reason for us to not use if if we want to.
It is unlikely to change in the future unless something changes with the body (like an addition of pain meds that might suppress respiration).

So unless you are now having a large number of centrals consistently...there is no reason in the world to not use it if it is something you like.

Exhale relief has always been considered a comfort feature that the patients all have the ability to change at will. If it was such a dire critical thing for people to not use it...it wouldn't be so easily and readily available to people.
Very well explained, tnk you so much