Review of SNOREMATE as adjunct to xPAP for mouth sealing

So, this is where I bought it:

http://www.snoremate.com/index.html

I had already tried a pretty standard boil and bite guard for this purpose and couldn't get it refined enough to work. The snoremate is also boil and bite but it involves both top and bottom sets of teeth and brings the lower jaw forward to an edge to edge kind of alignment like many of the more expensive oral appliances you get from your dentist or oral surgeon.

I got it boiled, bit and cooled in ice water right before bed. Just like a standard boil and bite guard I noticed immediately that there would be a problem with my mouth closing with so much "stuff" between my lips and teeth. I decided to try it with my swift alone to see what would happen.

As I got drowsy and jaw relaxed, my mouth opened up enough to defeat the purpose--air rushing out!

Ok, so at least there isn't any tape involved. I moved on to adding the chinstrap to the mix.

I woke 2-3 hours later with the chinstrap completely soaked in drool (grand poobah of TMI, sorry) and my jaw in intense pain. I had had enough and spit it out. Then I couldn't close my jaw in proper alignment. For lack of anything better to use, I chewed on my fingers for a while (I had read that mandibular positioners usually come with something to do "bite exercises" with in the morning to get the jaw back in correct position) and that seemed to work ok. Added my tape and went back to sleep.

Not going to even try this product again. I'm going to have my tonsils out two weeks from yesterday and not allowed any aspirin or nsaids so I'm not risking any pain unnecessarily.

While the website for this product claims that some use it to seal their mouth for cpap use, it will not work for me. I have heard of at least one member who also uses snoreban which is a similar device, for this purpose, so perhaps it will work for some.

BTW, this device comes from South Africa and has to go through customs in Great Britain, so it takes 2 weeks to arrive.

This experiment has me a bit disheartened that the TAP appliance I have on the way will work. However, TAP can be adjusted very slowly. And presumably will be more refined and fit in my mouth better. If I can't close my lips, it aint going to do the trick. And there is NO WAY I'm going to do oral appliance, chin strap AND tape. NO WAY. The idea is to not have to use tape!

Anyway, just doing my job to try to objectively report my fiindings to our little community.

Hope someone finds this post helpful and I hope anyone who has used it to positive effect will chime in with their 2 cents.

jen

Oo boy... Well, now I don't even want to boil my Walmart mouth guard...

Sorry Jen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woulda been great if it worked!!!!

My jaws are achey in sympathy for you now...

Feel the need to chew on something... Oh duh! It's lunchtime!!!!

Huggers,
B.

Babette, the problem with the jaw is the way that this positioner pulls the lower jaw foreward. A regular boil and bite wouldn't do that. If you have teeth grinding issues, it wouldn't hurt to try.

The jaw pain was gone by morning and I haven't had any pain today.

The TAP is moved ever so slowly so you don't have this all at once effect, I think. I will see eventually. It is already in the works and paid for.

Anyone else try this product or something similar?

Jen

Very helpful Jen. My husband has tried atleast 16 masks of all types. The hospital just tried 10 of them on him with his pressure (has a continental nose)(Read your other post)
the other 6 he's tried over a period of 2 mos. at home. The FF mirage seems to do best in supine position leak wise but after a few days the bridge of his nose he has a bump the size of a miniture marshmallow and his ASI are at about 20-30 which is an improvement over 64 but bring no refreshing sleep.
He's found the solution for compliance for him is side sleeping with the mask. He's doing the side sleep thing but has had recent back surgery and his hip hurts and keeps him awake so we're loking into memory foam & sleep number type mattresses, etc. etc. any suggestion side sleepers??
He's considered the oral devices but is concerned about creating tooth movement as he's had dental issues and very little root in his teeth although it is under control. Chin straps do not hold his jaw forward. Sounds like your both have similar issues.
We thought the TAP had to be fitted by a Dentist or is that what you meant??
Do post, will be interested in hearing your experience...and I think we can save our money on the boil and bite.
He's pretty much at the end of the CPAP compliance road if we can't get the side sleep issue resolved or find an oral appliance that can work in a supine position
Thanks, J

If you do wake up with a jaw ache... try an ice compress for a little while on it

[quote="OREO"]Very helpful Jen. My husband has tried atleast 16 masks of all types. The hospital just tried 10 of them on him with his pressure (has a continental nose)(Read your other post)
the other 6 he's tried over a period of 2 mos. at home. The FF mirage seems to do best in supine position leak wise but after a few days the bridge of his nose he has a bump the size of a miniture marshmallow and his ASI are at about 20-30 which is an improvement over 64 but bring no refreshing sleep.
He's found the solution for compliance for him is side sleeping with the mask. He's doing the side sleep thing but has had recent back surgery and his hip hurts and keeps him awake so we're loking into memory foam & sleep number type mattresses, etc. etc. any suggestion side sleepers??
He's considered the oral devices but is concerned about creating tooth movement as he's had dental issues and very little root in his teeth although it is under control. Chin straps do not hold his jaw forward. Sounds like your both have similar issues.
We thought the TAP had to be fitted by a Dentist or is that what you meant??
Do post, will be interested in hearing your experience...and I think we can save our money on the boil and bite.
He's pretty much at the end of the CPAP compliance road if we can't get the side sleep issue resolved or find an oral appliance that can work in a supine position
Thanks, J

OREO wrote:He's considered the oral devices but is concerned about creating tooth movement as he's had dental issues and very little root in his teeth although it is under control. Chin straps do not hold his jaw forward. Sounds like your both have similar issues.
We thought the TAP had to be fitted by a Dentist or is that what you meant??

I've used the TAP. It actually prevents tooth movement, because it is molded very tightly to your teeth. In fact, it can be uncomfortable if your teeth have drifted at all since the TAP was molded. Eventually, it pushes your teeth back into their original position, and then it is less uncomfortable.

The TAP is fitted by a dentist, and is gradually adjusted, unlike Jen's "Lets-do-it-all-in-one-night" experience!

That said, the TAP also didn't help me all that much. I eventually decided to move to CPAP.

TAP's been working GREAT for ME!

A couple of things though......

TAP allows your jaw to slide a bit side to side, which helps a LOT.

You really need to crank out the TAP SLOWLY, over WEEKS. Suddenly jamming your lower jaw way forward is a recipe for disaster.

The TAP should fit so tight that its a bit scarey to snap it over your teeth at first. If its looser than that, take it back for refitting.

I cannot emphasize enough how important the jaw exercises are with a dental device. This is your price of admission for using the device. In addition to the exercises that bite on the bit of flat soft plastic to leverage the jaw back, I have just formed a habit of working my jaw around during the day, and doing a isometric of keeping the jaw back for a bit while sitting around.

Since you MUST crank it out gradually and you are basically working a valve, i.e. your throat. You might not see any improvement until you hit the sweet spot where you have enough jaw movement to open an air passage.

Patience is a requirement for the dental device.

I am coming up on a year of use on a TAP in a couple of months, and no CPAP since I think last november or so.

I just had a followup check with my Sleep Dentist and he said his TAP business is picking WAY up, fitting 4-5 per WEEK, on disgruntled CPAPers and people that would not even consider CPAP and would otherwise go untreated.

I bet most of those people are not posting their successes on apnea forums though.

That being said, a dental device is NOT for everyone and IS a gamble to try.

A better intermediate step than the Football guard you bought is the Somnogard AP
http://nosnorezone.com/order.html
Which is not a giveaway at $170 but requires no prescrption, has SOME adjustment and allows some side to side movement. It is bulkier than the TAP even after trimming though.

Drooling will lessen with time with the dental device but is a bit of a harmless side effect.

Hey, Snork! Thanks for your great comments! I know I'm a dork . Forgive me for being impatient, K?

I am soooooo heartened to hear of your success with TAP. It makes me feel better about it. And you are so right about the gradual thing. You gotta give those muscles a chance to do their thing--I should have known better!

I think I remember reading old posts that you had also tried the NoseBreath appliance a long time ago? Is that correct? The one from the dentist in Hawaii. Now that one doesn't move the lower jaw forward at all, only puts the tongue in the proper position for "lip seal" to occur properly. If TAP doesn't work for me, I am thinking I might try that.

I have actually adapted quite well to bipap and don't really mind it much any more. If I have to stay on it, I will still have to come up with a solution for mouth leaks because I don't see myself taping forever--the only thing I dislike about xpap at the moment! This is why the NoseBreath seems appealing if the TAP isn't my long-term solution. I'm currently extremely happy with the swift.

Thoughts?

Jen

WHAT are you trying to fix with this home made device?

Are you trying to stop mouth breathing?

If it is only to stop mouth breathing, then it should be very thin and have no real advancement. Then I would think you would have to have a Class I overbite and not a Class II overbite for it to work.

or are you trying to come up with your own mandibular advancement device to reduce OSA?

Because if you are trying to accomplish the latter, like Snork said you are headed for a disaster.

Personally, I think you are spinning your wheels and wasting money. You are NOT the first here to try this approach. Next, you better have a good understanding of exactly what your obstructions are that contribute towards your poor sleep.

Because if you don't know that, I'm afraid you are only wasting more money and time going down that path.

If you want a mouth guard to protect your teeth from bruxing, then the OTC boil-n-bites work just as well as the one made by a dentist, but this one only has 1 piece and is worn on either the upper or lower teeth but not both (usually the bottom teeth).

If you are using two and advancing one you have to know exactly what you are doing or you can cause yourself some real harm to the TMJ joint. Understand you have HUGE forces when you bite down even during sleep, if things are not correct in that aspect you can develop TMJ damage of which you don't want to add to your existing disorders.

I think there is a Dentist out of Hawaii who will make you a device via mail order, some people have used them here with positive results.

But before you can use a device like TAP:

1. You have to know your sleep disorder and what makes it up. If you are a Severe case with some spontaneous arousals tossed in, it probably won't help you at all towards your daytime fatigue. Let's say you were AHI=60 per hour in your diagnostic PSG and you use a dental device to drop that by half, you are still at AHI=30 or in the Severe range. So if you still have to use CPAP to supplement that treatment with the dental device what are you actually saving?

Maybe if you were a mild-moderate OSA case like Snork it may help you, but if you are severe forget it. There is no dentist I know of (and I know a lot of them including Maxillofacial Surgeons) that can look at you and give you an exam and tell you with any confidence at all that a dental device will cure you. If they do tell you that, I'd look for another.

2. There is just as much discomfort using a dental device as there is with CPAP. Don't believe me? go over to TAS Dental forums and read the complaints yourself. CPAP may involve some discomfort from the mask, but it usually doesn't result in jaw bone pain.

Dental devices like TAP move your mandible precisely "down" and "forward" in minute increments in gradual steps over weeks. This may help some because they move your mandible forward, since your tongue is attached to the chin bone on the back side it also moves your tongue away from the back of the throat, hopefully enough to eliminate the blockage. That is the geometry of how they work. A GA procedure does the same thing, it moves the tongue forward by advancing it where it is attached behind the chin bone. MMA procedure does the same thing except they cut the jaw bone/mandible and perform bone grafts and may even combine GA with MMA if more movement is needed. I have no idea what they do with that main nerve that runs through your mandible, I know my surgeon friend cringes at the thought of that procedure.

But the latter are last resort efforts and can take more than a year to complete the end result with lots more pain felt between, you also have to have Ortho done on your teeth along with braces so your teeth occlusal is put back in alignment.

As you found out, those dental devices are not without their discomforts either, in fact they usually involve pain more so than discomfort until you get used to them.

Then if your disorder is NOT all OSA related (such as PLMD, Spontaneous), those devices may NOT do anything to address your daytime fatigue. Just ask Andyomega, he spent something like $2700 on one and is back to square one on CPAP.

Despite the testimonials, they don't work for everyone, my daughter is a dentist and I can tell you right now your dentist has no idea what so ever if that device is working or not without a before and after PSG being performed and they get absolutely NO sleep training in Dental School even the best ones like UCLA.

Whoah, slow down, Snoredog!

I know--you are right! It was a waste of time and money and dorky of me to try the snoremate. It didn't occur to me (don't know why--maybe I'm sleep deprived ) that it would cause any pain for just a short trial.

I was trying to accomplish two things, I guess. I wanted to see if I could find an inexpensive alternative to taping. I also wanted to approximate what TAP felt like (now know that was dumb, since TAP is done slowly). I learned my lesson--no more dumb experiments on my teeth unless directed by my oral surgeon who is making the TAP for me.

He has done lots of measurements and thinks I have severe underbite and an xl tongue, both of which are contributing to the apnea. He IS NOT telling me he is curing me. But, he is confident that between TAP and tonsils out therapy should be easier (it already is--I got an auto bipap, but at the time I didn't know I was going to be able to do that or that it would make such a difference).

If I had known that I would be able to get an auto and that it would take me from a miserable 2 hours of sleep on the hose to comfortable full time compliance, I would never have even LOOKED INTO the TAP. But, that is 20/20 hindsight for you. I was desperate to get the osa under control at the time because I felt miserable and hopeless.

Now my biggest obstacle is mouth leak. I doubt the TAP will help with that. The doc you mentioned in Hawaii sells the nosebreath, but after all this I am reluctant to possibly throw more money away. I 'm smartening up now that I'm sleeping better and getting good advice, like yours!

Forgive me for not wanting to tape the rest of my life. I have been unable to wear any ff mask except the hans rudolph and to be honest, I just prefer pillows and sleep better with them than that mask. I personally believe we should be breathing thru our noses primarily anyway.

So, I don't know what I will do for the mouth leaks. I'm curious about the lipseal from Aus too, but we've already discussed that . And I'm reluctant to spend the money on another potentially disastroud experiment just yet.

So, there is is, Snoredog! I can be impulsive. But I can also learn a lesson!

Jen

Gee, I wonder why success stories rarely come back to tell of their success with dental devices?
Oh yah, just not enough into taking abuse and putting up with people going off on them. Good thing I have a tough hide.

I have not heard many good things said about the Hawaiin devices. I did NOT try that one myself. I did try the infamous tongue sucker device, but even with my level of determination, THAT one turned out to be a disaster.

I also have a PILE of CPAP masks and a couple of CPAP machines that I tried and didn't work out too though.

Whatever happened to all the development here and on the talkaboutsleep forum on the DIY tongue trainer device for stopping mouth breathing? I worked a lot on the development of that along with a couple of other "pioneers" and had mine working pretty darn well for a "$3+saturday afternoon fiddling" device. Seems like that approach was lost in the dim recesses of CPAP forum history? I went from massive mouth leaks with mummy wrapped head to little or no mouth leaks with at the most a tiny "reminder" chin strap using that device. How about some CONSTRUCTIVE advice being tossed in here?


I recommend going through a CERTIFIED sleep dentist, but I do have a "Income Challenged" friend who has been using what I consider a temporary solution, the Somnogard AP as his permanent solution due to budget restrictions. At worst case that is just a $160 experiment.

My TAP Titanium cost $1700, through a certified sleep dentist, which seems to be the going price if you shop around, although you can buy them for as high as $3K for the same thing.

I take Hylands Restful Legs for my RLS, and combined with the device it gives me a good dream filled night of sleep with high oxygen levels. Beyond that, I really don't give a rats arse if others want to tell horror stories and deny that there might be alternatives to CPAP that might work for SOME people.

Yah, you will get only the problems showing up in the other forum, because the success stories have no reason to write in. They just get on with their lives, without all the tweaking required for CPAP.

BUT, if your apnea is fat related or brain signal related or otherwise unrelated to pulling your tongue forward....indeed THEN a dental device is not worth the cost of experiment. Sadly most sleep docs have no clue as to what CAUSES your apnea.

And a single dentist "testimonial" that she is clueless about dental devices and Apnea does not represent everyone. But that does point out why its best to go through a CERTIFIED sleep dentist.

Sorry to break the news to you Jen, but if ALL you want to do is stop mouth leaks, a properly modified DIY mouthguard turned into a tongue guide might have been all you needed. Hopefully the TAP will give you more than that.

My dentist will give a partial refund (he needs to cover his basic lab costs) if the dental device doesn't work out for an individual. And insurance paid for $800 of mine...eventually.

Snork,

I've got thick skin too, most of the time. I know where you are coming from.

The thing is, I know all about your diy mouthpiece and have experimented with it myself, and I couldn't get it to work for me, but maybe I should try it again. I have read all those old posts and I have even seen Snoredog recommend your diy mouthpiece to others.

I'm trying to explore all my options, maintaining an eye toward budget. One of the best things I've done so far is to buy a used swift off of Blarg, and that was a very good "experiment" that turned out just fine and didn't cost me much. That has changed things for the better in so many ways for me. I'm just sleeping so much more naturally than I have with any other mask until now. At last count I'm up to about 8 or 9 masks, some of which have luckily been replaced by the dme, others sold, others traded. Thank goodness for mask roulette.

I wonder who it was that I read tried the nosebreathe. HMM. I was reading an old thread where a whole bunch of ya'll were sending off to Hawaii for them. In the end, I read only a couple had success but I couldn't find any good details about it and so I'm reluctant to try it myself because of the expense even if it might help. Maybe it was dsm. Maybe I'll give him a pm and see if I can get more details.

I haven't heard of the tongue sucker debacle you mentioned, but I think I know which one you are talking about--I've seen some weird stuff on the internet in my searches!

I think most of us have been desperate enough or impatient enough to buy a bunch of apnea related stuff in the hopes it will help. I don't think I'm unique in that regard.

I have read threads where folks were trying all kinds of silicone to make some kind of mouth dam to put behind their lips to stop mouth leaks--that one wouldn't have occurred to me!

I got a good tip from RestedGal about maybe trying pantyhose tights for a chin strap that you can pull up over the lips and try to keep them shut that way. When I looked at the tights at Target, they cost too much for an "experiment" so I'll have to either find some serindipidously or knit something similar!

My TAP will not be the titanium version. Mine will be acrylic, I believe, and it is costing somewhere around $900. I have paid half and the insurance reimbursed me within a week or two, so I was lucky in that regard.

The TAP is now FDA approved for even severe sleep apnea.

Once my tonsils are out, I'm hoping not to be so severe anyway. I'm borderline severe as my anatomy is now.

I'm going to be getting another polysomnogram after the tonsils are out and the TAP is in place and if it turns out that I will be ok w/o cpap, you betcha I'm going to invest in a pulse-ox to check it periodically for myself!

1. You have to know your sleep disorder and what makes it up. If you are a Severe case with some spontaneous arousals tossed in, it probably won't help you at all towards your daytime fatigue. Let's say you were AHI=60 per hour in your diagnostic PSG and you use a dental device to drop that by half, you are still at AHI=30 or in the Severe range. So if you still have to use CPAP to supplement that treatment with the dental device what are you actually saving?

Sleep study ahi was 30. Tonsil removal (mine are so big they touch) should reduce it some. My palate is not the problem--very small. The problem is my xl tongue. So, I think it is reasonable to believe that the TAP could help me. I did have some spontaneous arousals during my sleep study, but I was taking a very high dose of prozac (40 mg) which is known to cause/exacerbate spontaneous arousals. I'm now down to 10 mg every other day under a doctor's supervision and instruction--once I got some sleep I was OD'ing on serotonin (getting very jittery). And I'm sleeping better than ever. I never needed prozac--I needed sleep!

And if spontaneous arousals were still plagueing me, then I wouldn't feel so damn blissfully good right now!

I feel very blessed that this (apnea) was caught b4 any serious life-long damage was done to my body. I'm not about to voluntarily ask for more! But I am willing to experiment to see if I can improve my therapy, but I have a rule--if it hurts, stop and try something else. Now where does that kind of rule come from, oh yeah! COMMON SENSE!

So, Snoredog, now I have a question for you--why did it upset you so much that I tried this? I admitted failure and said it was a mistake. And surely you know by now, having read some of my posts that I'm not a lunatic! Or too much of one, anyway. Surely you know that I am big time into research and try to do as much as I can, but you also know that there isn't much known about the mouth leak issue and those of us who suffer from this problem and are born-problem-solvers will be trying anything they can think of to find a solution. So, what was it? Just curious. No biggie.

I'm 35 years old and I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to tape my mouth shut for the next 40+ years, OK?

jen

[quote="socknitster"]Whoah, slow down, Snoredog!

I know--you are right! It was a waste of time and money and dorky of me to try the snoremate. It didn't occur to me (don't know why--maybe I'm sleep deprived ) that it would cause any pain for just a short trial.

I was trying to accomplish two things, I guess. I wanted to see if I could find an inexpensive alternative to taping. I also wanted to approximate what TAP felt like (now know that was dumb, since TAP is done slowly). I learned my lesson--no more dumb experiments on my teeth unless directed by my oral surgeon who is making the TAP for me.

He has done lots of measurements and thinks I have severe underbite and an xl tongue, both of which are contributing to the apnea. He IS NOT telling me he is curing me. But, he is confident that between TAP and tonsils out therapy should be easier (it already is--I got an auto bipap, but at the time I didn't know I was going to be able to do that or that it would make such a difference).

If I had known that I would be able to get an auto and that it would take me from a miserable 2 hours of sleep on the hose to comfortable full time compliance, I would never have even LOOKED INTO the TAP. But, that is 20/20 hindsight for you. I was desperate to get the osa under control at the time because I felt miserable and hopeless.

Now my biggest obstacle is mouth leak. I doubt the TAP will help with that. The doc you mentioned in Hawaii sells the nosebreath, but after all this I am reluctant to possibly throw more money away. I 'm smartening up now that I'm sleeping better and getting good advice, like yours!

Forgive me for not wanting to tape the rest of my life. I have been unable to wear any ff mask except the hans rudolph and to be honest, I just prefer pillows and sleep better with them than that mask. I personally believe we should be breathing thru our noses primarily anyway.

So, I don't know what I will do for the mouth leaks. I'm curious about the lipseal from Aus too, but we've already discussed that . And I'm reluctant to spend the money on another potentially disastroud experiment just yet.

So, there is is, Snoredog! I can be impulsive. But I can also learn a lesson!

Jen

socknitster wrote:Snork,

I've got thick skin too, most of the time. I know where you are coming from.

The thing is, I know all about your diy mouthpiece and have experimented with it myself, and I couldn't get it to work for me, but maybe I should try it again. I have read all those old posts and I have even seen Snoredog recommend your diy mouthpiece to others.

I'm trying to explore all my options, maintaining an eye toward budget. One of the best things I've done so far is to buy a used swift off of Blarg, and that was a very good "experiment" that turned out just fine and didn't cost me much. That has changed things for the better in so many ways for me. I'm just sleeping so much more naturally than I have with any other mask until now. At last count I'm up to about 8 or 9 masks, some of which have luckily been replaced by the dme, others sold, others traded. Thank goodness for mask roulette.

I wonder who it was that I read tried the nosebreathe. HMM. I was reading an old thread where a whole bunch of ya'll were sending off to Hawaii for them. In the end, I read only a couple had success but I couldn't find any good details about it and so I'm reluctant to try it myself because of the expense even if it might help. Maybe it was dsm. Maybe I'll give him a pm and see if I can get more details.

I haven't heard of the tongue sucker debacle you mentioned, but I think I know which one you are talking about--I've seen some weird stuff on the internet in my searches!

I think most of us have been desperate enough or impatient enough to buy a bunch of apnea related stuff in the hopes it will help. I don't think I'm unique in that regard.

I have read threads where folks were trying all kinds of silicone to make some kind of mouth dam to put behind their lips to stop mouth leaks--that one wouldn't have occurred to me!

I got a good tip from RestedGal about maybe trying pantyhose tights for a chin strap that you can pull up over the lips and try to keep them shut that way. When I looked at the tights at Target, they cost too much for an "experiment" so I'll have to either find some serindipidously or knit something similar!

My TAP will not be the titanium version. Mine will be acrylic, I believe, and it is costing somewhere around $900. I have paid half and the insurance reimbursed me within a week or two, so I was lucky in that regard.

The TAP is now FDA approved for even severe sleep apnea.

Once my tonsils are out, I'm hoping not to be so severe anyway. I'm borderline severe as my anatomy is now.

I'm going to be getting another polysomnogram after the tonsils are out and the TAP is in place and if it turns out that I will be ok w/o cpap, you betcha I'm going to invest in a pulse-ox to check it periodically for myself!

1. You have to know your sleep disorder and what makes it up. If you are a Severe case with some spontaneous arousals tossed in, it probably won't help you at all towards your daytime fatigue. Let's say you were AHI=60 per hour in your diagnostic PSG and you use a dental device to drop that by half, you are still at AHI=30 or in the Severe range. So if you still have to use CPAP to supplement that treatment with the dental device what are you actually saving?

Sleep study ahi was 30. Tonsil removal (mine are so big they touch) should reduce it some. My palate is not the problem--very small. The problem is my xl tongue. So, I think it is reasonable to believe that the TAP could help me. I did have some spontaneous arousals during my sleep study, but I was taking a very high dose of prozac (40 mg) which is known to cause/exacerbate spontaneous arousals. I'm now down to 10 mg every other day under a doctor's supervision and instruction--once I got some sleep I was OD'ing on serotonin (getting very jittery). And I'm sleeping better than ever. I never needed prozac--I needed sleep!

And if spontaneous arousals were still plagueing me, then I wouldn't feel so damn blissfully good right now!

I feel very blessed that this (apnea) was caught b4 any serious life-long damage was done to my body. I'm not about to voluntarily ask for more! But I am willing to experiment to see if I can improve my therapy, but I have a rule--if it hurts, stop and try something else. Now where does that kind of rule come from, oh yeah! COMMON SENSE!

So, Snoredog, now I have a question for you--why did it upset you so much that I tried this? I admitted failure and said it was a mistake. And surely you know by now, having read some of my posts that I'm not a lunatic! Or too much of one, anyway. Surely you know that I am big time into research and try to do as much as I can, but you also know that there isn't much known about the mouth leak issue and those of us who suffer from this problem and are born-problem-solvers will be trying anything they can think of to find a solution. So, what was it? Just curious. No biggie.

I'm 35 years old and I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to tape my mouth shut for the next 40+ years, OK?

jen